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Discussion Starter #1
From the LS1.COM forum:
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Well I was driving home on I75 south when a 4 dr BMW pulls past me on my left. He blips the throttle (his little attention getter, and it worked) and then continues to drive normally. So I slip in behind to see if he was up for some fun, then noticed it was an M5. Well we drive for about 15 miles before he gets froggy and jumps .
He was still in front of me and we were both in the left lane, I see him take off to the right around a car that was in front of him. So I quickly drop 3rd at about 70 and nail it and follow him around the car I was pulling closer and then slipped left and shifted 4th and pulled past him about 3 cars I shut it down at about 115 - 120. I slowed waiting to see what he would do, he slowly passes, I waved and all he did is stare (with this I don't believe what just happened look on his face)


I had to get off soon so I left him alone after our little race. I’m sure he had no idea what was in store for him before the race started

That is my first incounter with an M5 and they are pretty fast, and look awesome. It's not bad for a 4dr

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2000 WS6 Trans AM
Silver Metallic, M6.
MODS
MTI Lid w/K&N Filter, GMAF, Mike Morgan TB, !EGR, Random Tech y-pipe and cats (First Ever), Random Tech Catback, Eibach Pro Kit.
Next on the List
UD pulleys, Custom ECM Programming, 3.73:1 gears. BG RAM AIR.

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Now please don't go over there and start a big war. If someone is local, you should go for a rematch. These TA's aren't slow but I gotta believe the M5 driver should have dropped one more gear. I replied and tried to logically explain why 3-4 cars isn't likely. I raced on of these and it was fast but not that fast.
 

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Somehow, I had that feeling that M5 driver wasn't trying at all...


I have to say that WS6 is actually one of my favourite, American sports car(Viper still topped my list), but blew away a M5?? Not a chance.....LOL


Andy Kuo



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Mercedes S-Class Page
http://akry.homestead.com
 

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well, the WS6 was pretty heavily modified... so it would have been a good race.. besides, the M5 was probably a new car and the owner didn't want to gun it during break in period.. =)
 

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I'm generally not much on published numbers, but the one that sticks in my mind about the M5 is 0-150 in 30 seconds flat.

The published numbers on the LS1-powered Camarobirds have that time in the 40 second bracket.

Now, that said, it's reputedly not that hard to get the LS1 up to 400 HP normally aspirated, though you won't do it with the OEM cam.
 

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I raced one of these Pontiacs in my old SC M3 and beat him. This was one of those 80 to 120 MPH races. I am not sure what year that one was, but it was a WS6. I have scientifically proven that my M5 is faster than my old SC M3 at the racetrack, at least at 80+ mph.(I think the cars are dead even from 0 to 60.) So I doubt the M5 was trying all that hard.
 

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Speaking of HP....I just want to point out one interesting thing. Camero Z28(or SS) and F-Bird Trans AM(or RAM-Air)puts down more HP via rear tires to the ground than C5 Corvette, yet they cost not even 3/4 of a basic C5 Coupe....

Andy Kuo
 

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Well pontiac.com says the trans am weighs 3567 pounds as opposed to the beast's 4024. The trans am ws6 has 320 horses.

Now, let's look at the dude's mods...K&N (10 HP?) mass air (15?), throttle body (15?), cats and cat-back (25?) and an egr (sorry I don't know what this is). So let's say the car has...385 HP.

Quick math shows that the ws6 was carrying one less pound per horse in this race.

Although 2-3 carlengths is a bit of a fish story, I have to say that 1 lb/HP is fairly significant and I'm afraid that the win sounds plausible - particularly since the ws6 has an extra 50 or so cubes...

He can keep his Pontiac though... ;0)

- Alps
 

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The HP numbers you quote are only going to happen in the parts marketers' dreams.

K&N filter's worth 2-5HP tops. The MAF and throttle body - depending on whose, might be worth 10HP combined. Don't know much about Camarobird exhaust plumbing but I doubt there's 25HP to be gained with a single part.

Still, it's a nice engine, Callaway gets 400 crank HP out of 'em with driveability (reputedly) equivalent to an M5, Opel will be (any day now) selling an Omega in Europe using the LS1 engine in Camaro SS/Holden 320HP tune, Cadillac's presumably too loaded with NIH to sell it here (US.)

I'd be willing to bet money, in fact, that the LS1 costs less to build than the 2.5/3.0 DOHC V6 that otherwise carries Cateras/Omegas around.
 

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Hello everyone, I am the owner of the WS6 that raced the M5 on I75 in GA. I don’t want you guy’s thinking I’m some punk kid that slamming the M5, I’m not. However the driver of the M5 initiated (he also reved when he first pulled up next to me) this race so I would hope he was trying, if not then why bother racing. Anyway I will be dynoing my car sometime soon to see what my actual HP is. I will post my results as soon as I get them. If there is an Atlanta local here that owns a stock 00 M5, I would love to run this race again. Maybe I win maybe I lose but at least we will know for sure this time.

I really feel the M5 was racing me since after we raced he had a strange look like he didn’t expect that to happen. Stock the M5 and WS6 (I don’t know why people have a hard time believing this) run close with the M5 being a bit faster.


Lets remember that the LS1 stock has a bit more then 320 HP and 335 TQ, and yes the LS1 motor can reach 400 HP at the crank (340 RHWP) with the OEM cam it has been done time and time again. Hell with heads and cam work the LS1 is putting out about 415 at the wheels. Which is about 490 at the crank.


I’m sure the M5 with bolt on mods can put out close to 450 HP at the crank, so I know this car has lots of power. Like I said I think the M5 is a great car. I just posted what happened, that’s all. If someone wants to race me with a stock 00 M5, just let me know. It’s all in fun anyway.

P.S. it’s about time you started using UBB instead of that other BB software
 

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Hi, I think this really not a fair race....Stock car Vs. Modified car....I have a 94 Supra TT that is modified (410 RWHP dynoed), I think it is alot faster than my M5...But then my M5 is still stock....

I beat a stock 993 Porsche TT and a stock F355 a couple times in the freeway even a Viper (R/T though) in the Supra.....I think it is only fair if we race stock vs. stock only...cause who knows how many modification is done in a car...

Just wait till I do some mods in my M5....
then I'll do a friendly race with any one....


Alpwhite M5
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I don't think you slammed the M5 at all. However, as I said on the LS1 board, peak horsepower is just that, peak. I would bet that the M5 has a way flatter torque curve and that would make a signifcant difference. Why do you think the 240hp M3 is so quick stock? I mean the M5 does 0-120mph in 17 seconds or so in stock trim. To beat a car like that by 4-5 car lengths means somethings up.

BTW guys, a K&N filter is not going to give you any signifcant hp increase, though sometimes I think it made my 325i more willing to rev. But 10hp? No way.
 

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So what if the Pontiac beat him... it's a pretty quick car, and the mods made it a bit more so. And you don't think a 5.7 pushrod V8 has a flat torque curve? If the M5 was not going to get beat, he would have to have a good downshift into the right gear (rev matched), he would have to shift way up in the revs, etc. And do you really care that this guy got beat? I got rid of a Viper GTS (which yes, was a whole bunch faster) to get the M5, and am happy that this car can run with the rest (993, 996, Vette, Supra, et al). And BTW, those mods probably give him about 25-30hp at the rear wheels.

Just my opinion. Dan
 

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KKelly, I wouldn't make that bet if I were you
about the torque curve that is. The LS1 has a very flat torgue curve. I saw the dyno that was posted on Hennessy's site and the curve didn't seem any flatter then the LS1's.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Do you know where there is a dyno of an LS1 torque curve? Without variable valve or cam timing, not likely. This is not to take away from what the engine does and its size alone gives it gobs of torque. However, the M5's performance is a result of much more sophisticated engineering and electronics as well as good old mutlipe throttle bodies and this is what gives it such linear power.

Don't get me wrong. I respect the TA and have raced one so I know what they are capable of. I could do without some of the creative bodywork though.
 

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My own experience is that the LS1 has a very flat torque curve, and a healthy one. It starts off with a 15% displacement advantage over an M5, to begin with.

It's a very nice engine, and it manages to combine pretty much all the necessary attributes of a good high-performance production engine:

1) it makes good HP and torque across the rev band

2) it has decent specific fuel consumption numbers

3) it's reasonably durable

4) it's compact and lightweight

5) and it's very cheap to build (esp. considering GM builds truck engines of similar design on, I believe, the same tooling.)

The M5 V8 does somewhat better on HP/torque in stock trim, about equal or a little better on BSFC, insufficient experience to rate durability, the BMW engine is considerably bulkier if not much heavier and many, many times more expensive.

FWIW the next LS1 is supposed to have variable cam timing - separate intake and exhaust cams, still in the block. A clever approach and definitely a cost-effective one.
 

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Here is a link to a full M5 dyno run by Hennessey off the old board. It compares to the 540i. Peak "corrected" HP is approx. 350 and peak torque is 335.

http://www.pro-man.com/M5/m5_540_dyno

At an optimistic 17% efficiency this would yield 403 Ft-LBs and 422 HP at the crank.

At a more realistic 20% efficiency this would yield 419 FT-Lbs and 437 HP.

These numbers are significantly higher than the BMW factory numbers. Cannot explain, except BMW published mininum numbers to account for manufacturing tolerances and does not want to end up in the Ford Cobra predicatement.

Pretty impressive to get those numbers at the wheels. My Supercharged M3 was only 275 HP at the wheels.
 

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Most people use 12-15% driveline loss. Example being my last car, a Viper GTS, making around 400 at the rear wheels and 450 at the crank. Similar results seen on a Porsche. Just my 2 worthless cents. Dan.
 

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Daniel,

Your 12-15% come out better, but I have had dyno operators and my mechanic tell me anywhere from 15% to 25%. I find a lot of differing opinions here. The real value of the dyno is to measure improvements done to a specific car. Of course even that has great variances. Sounds like 15% is a safe number. Of course it depends on the car. The Viper probably has a more efficient drive train. Sometimes it would be nice to get a straight answer from the experts.
 

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Well from what I have heard and experienced 15% is good for cars that have manual transmission and 20% for cars with an Auto. 25% is more for AWD cars. So it does vary but it depends on the drive train itself. So, I would say 15% is pretty accurate for the M5
 
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