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Years ago, kendall gt1 20w50 was a great oil, but coast oil (i think) bought out kendall and the formulation changed. The "Old kendal GT1" is now sold by brad penn oil.

Edit raymondw: added as attachement
 

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Discussion Starter #82
Years ago, kendall gt1 20w50 was a great oil, but coast oil (i think) bought out kendall and the formulation changed. The "Old kendal GT1" is now sold by brad penn oil.

Mike,

Thanks for posting this. At 883ppm zddp I am asking myself after say 3k miles of oil change what number the zddp will drop to ? Perhaps 600ppm ? that number will be in the danger zone for the cam lobes. After some lab tests I can see around +/- 200ppm of zddp drop in most oils.

Regards
Anri
 

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Discussion Starter #83 (Edited)
Hi,

I was replacing oil pan gasket and I sow something that did not like. I found inside the oil little bit water drops...I think the head gasket is on its way and its sips little bit somewhere...because the cyl head gasket has slight sweat spot. I might be wrong but after many oil pan gaskets replacement I have never seen Water drops inside the oil pan. Will see what BlackStone will say. Interesting, now days the weather is kind of chilled and it would be a possibility of some condensation inside the oil till the engine heats up.

I filled up the BlackStone bottle and next week alone with my friend E46 M3 will sent both Samples for lab testing to see what's going on. This oil test thread is really getting very exciting fact/s on the filed and more accurate diagnostic !

Few pics bellow.

More to come !

Cheers
Anri
 

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Mike,

Thanks for posting this. At 883ppm zddp I am asking myself after say 3k miles of oil change what number the zddp will drop to ? Perhaps 600ppm ? that number will be in the danger zone for the cam lobes. After some lab tests I can see around +/- 200ppm of zddp drop in most oils.

Regards
Anri

I have a UOA of Kendall 20W-50 a few posts before the VOA. After 3,250 miles, 1qt burned replaced with Mobil 1 5W-30, zinc came out to 942ppm, phosphorus 884ppm (Compared with VOA of 883/805)





Their website claims 1200ppm zinc / 1090 phosphorus
 

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Mike,

Thanks for posting this. At 883ppm zddp I am asking myself after say 3k miles of oil change what number the zddp will drop to ? Perhaps 600ppm ? that number will be in the danger zone for the cam lobes. After some lab tests I can see around +/- 200ppm of zddp drop in most oils.

Regards
Anri
ZDDP stands for zincdialkyldithiophosphate and formulated around Zinc and Phosphor that are chemically connected. Only this combination is effective against scuffing metal to metal contact during boundary mode lubrication.

Manufacturers usually specify (if they do) ZDDP in the specific content of either one or both of its main elements (P or Zn), but not specific ZDDP and this is confusing because ZDDP will deplete life into the two main elements throughout the oils service. A UOA will detect the original content of Zn and P regardless of the service life, but will not measure how much of that still is active as ZDDP. There are (expensive) methods to find out, but these are most often not offered by lab's who perform UOA for consumers.

Based on combining existing documentation, something can be said about what is a safe content of ZDDP for the S38. The BMW special oil list that was effective until 2004 did approve Castrol TWS Motorsport for S38 purposes. The TWS product datasheet from 4/2000 states that the level of P is 1000ppm. Based on UOA's/VOA's made available in the E39S section, there is no reason to assume that Castrol did change this until 2005, by when the BMW special oil list was retired. Based on the same UOA's/VOA's, Castrol lowered the content of Zn and P (and thus also ZDDP) with about 30%-40%, probably to address catalytic converter concerns for amongst others the S54/S85 !

Around circa 2007, the first cam-lobe problems with Castrol TWS and S14/S38 engine were reported. I have a few documented cases and based on my own research, I dare to say that empirically 800ppm of P is too low for an S14/S38/M88 engine without lowering the oil-service interval to the earlier mentioned 4k to 5k km range, but since it is impossible to verify without measuring the remainder of the effective ZDDP, I have to make it clear that this is an assumption.

Given the rebuild cost of an S38, even partially, I'd rather stay on the safe side and only choose engine oils with more than 1000ppm on P. I know that YMMV and you still think this is too low, but I have only seen camlobe damage on S38/S14/M88’s that were operated with engine oils with less than 800ppm on P. The grey-zone is therefore 200ppm, which I am reluctant to explore. I’d rather stay on the safe side with P-level being more than 1000ppm. Brad Penn High Performance 15W40 and 20W50 should be excellent performers as well as Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60.
 

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I’d rather stay on the safe side with P-level being more than 1000ppm. Brad Penn High Performance 15W40 and 20W50 should be excellent performers as well as Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60.
we don't get the mobil 1 10w60 in the US. I have started using redline 15w50, which VOA's typically show around 12-1300ppm of zinc and phosphorus. I've yet to do a UOA with this oil. my first oil change 'cycle' was after fresh rod bearings, so this next time around i'll take a sample.
 

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we don't get the mobil 1 10w60 in the US. I have started using redline 15w50, which VOA's typically show around 12-1300ppm of zinc and phosphorus. I've yet to do a UOA with this oil. my first oil change 'cycle' was after fresh rod bearings, so this next time around i'll take a sample.
I understand and Redline 15W50 appears to be an excellent choice outside polar climates. It compares to Motul's 300V competition 15W50 that Ficelle recommends . I'd love to see a VOA of both.

I think that with the knowledge that has been shared, we can actually write down and share general requirements to avoid any discussion on brand/type and believes. IMHO, any oil that has ample amount of ZDDP and good HTHS (>3,7cp) should do for an S38/M88/S14, the viscosity rating is merely a matter of climate and conditions that the car is operated at.
 

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Back to Anri's point - I have an S50 car that shows some emulsification on the dipstick when used for short journeys. And this has been the case for years. other owners report similar. My assumption is that this is caused by condensation, rather than a HG issue which i would expect to have deteriorated by now.

And back on topic - I will shortly have a UOA of Motul 6100 technosynthese 15w50, that has been in my S38B38 for just over a year now (but not many miles).
 

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Discussion Starter #89 (Edited)
I understand and Redline 15W50 appears to be an excellent choice outside polar climates. It compares to Motul's 300V competition 15W50 that Ficelle recommends . I'd love to see a VOA of both.

I think that with the knowledge that has been shared, we can actually write down and share general requirements to avoid any discussion on brand/type and believes. IMHO, any oil that has ample amount of ZDDP and good HTHS (>3,7cp) should do for an S38/M88/S14, the viscosity rating is merely a matter of climate and conditions that the car is operated at.
Raymond,

I agree with several oil that you have pointed and there will be another couple of like Valvoline VR1 is a good choose as well and we can point several more...The proper pick of oil choice must be used as you pointed already for the proper Climate viscosity.

Where did you get the 200ppm Z. came from ? This must be oil made inside the basement in a home/garage conditions hiha At 200ppm Z I don't think the engine will survive....Is that oil coast 0.10 per liter ? :)

I will remain as you are on oil that supports min 1300ppm as a virgin sample of [email protected] and the 10W-60 choice of Viscosity. This is covering yearly weather climates from hot to cold and also flash point is very hi may be not so good for -50C but if BMW MS decided to use on S54 world wide that choice of viscosity should do the job correct.

Another point I would like to bring is the Detergent! We already figure out the zddp and p. by real factors of oil test but lets move to Detergents number element. Now out of the several choices of oil I would like to compare which one has more detergent element to keep the the engine clean.

I am using these days on one of my daily driver M6 Mobile Delvac 15W-40 for Diesel engines with added 500ppm of [email protected] and will sent a sample to see the results.

Years ago when I got a donor E34 M5 for the engine for my race car I was amazed what I sow. The engine had refresh at 100k miles and after the refresh was driven only around 112k miles with 15W50 Mobile-1 oil. Inside the Cam Tray was 1 inch of MUD the only one part you could see was the cam lobes and they do not have any lobe pitting what so ever. I will put my effort to find the pictures I made something I have never seen for the 10+ S38 engines a have torn a part and put together. My explanation was that only oil was added due to oil leak/s may be ? I have no proof of every 3k miles oil change, that may be the factor. After this case I was more eager to learn for oils, at Laguna Seca Hystorics I met the Motul Rep for S.California and we were talking and he said that the Motul oil have very strong detergent elements in comparison to other oils..(may be it was an advertising point) but I would like to see that trought real lab test.

For sure Diesel oils are more aggressive on detergents and gas. The Diesel fuel is 1) very strong and can be found more into the oil vs gas engines and also the its is very dirty. The diesel oils should have more detergent elements for exact that point. But not that protective at very hi revs engines because they are mineral based oil. Right after that it comes the point of how abusive we are to our engines and driving habits. If your engine sees 6k rpm per every 3 months I mean may be not that important to drive with the hi dollar oil.

Going back to basics for a Road going S38 engine need. 15W-40 viscosity is OK to use, min of [email protected] and HTHS >3,7cp, 2500k miles oil change and it should keep the S38 in top clean condition.

Raymond, do you have any information between 1989-1995 when BMW MS sold E34 M5 what was the service intervals ? If I am not mistaken the Maintenance book says oil change at 7500k Kilometers using oil grade not less than 15W-40 Mineral base oil. That said using US standards that is double the miles driven with one oil.

I remember back in Europe eeeeeeeverybody was changing oil between 7500-10.000K Kilometers and I am sure we Europeans still do that. I remember a friend purchased E36 M3 3.0 S50B30 and he was distributing Repsol for Bulgaria and he was proud to change his oil at early 7000k kilometers. Hear in US everybody is doing oil change at 3000k miles that's around 4500k kilometers half of what E34 M5 European owners did when the car sold New back home in EU. Using 10W-60 in S38 engine is an upgrade oil not downgrade. Some older mechanics are leaving with the idea of using Syntetic oil on S38 it will damage the engine I have heard that from a very Reputable shop in Glendale, CA the Owner that advertises hear on the M5board...When I put 10W-60 inside my E24 M6 10years ago I did not know any better and under my own risk I sad I will take a chance regardless that Everybody was telling me that I will harm the engine! till know my engine has 238k miles and still counts!

When I was using back in the days Castor 10W-60 TWS and then moved to 10W-60 Luquil Mouly I try pushing 5000k miles and after the moment I pass 3000k miles I have to top ~400ml oil at 5000k that should indicate that the oil is getting worn pass 3k miles. I went back to 3000k miles oil change Intervals 0 zero oil consumption, driving condition is moderate daily driving. Sure If if I push the engine up to the red line every traffic light their will be oil consumption. Even IMSA E34 M5 is using 10W60 for the race use.

Thoughts ?

Regards
Anri
 

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Where did you get the 200ppm Z. came from ? This must be oil made inside the basement in a home/garage conditions hiha
I think you have missed my point, but let me be specific:

1: P <800ppm => critical in any case, even for normal street-applications.
2: 800ppm < P <1000ppm => probably OK for normal street-applications, but critical for regular spirited driving (Autobahn, mountain passes)
3: 1000ppm < P <1200ppm => safe, for everything but regular hard track-use
4: P >1200ppm => Demanding and severe applications => track-use and sustained high-speed driving (e.g. German Autobahns).

With the 200ppm range, I did not refer to an absolute figure, but the range between 800ppm and 1000ppm!

I will remain as you are on oil that supports min 1300ppm as a virgin sample of [email protected] and the 10W-60 choice of Viscosity.
You are combining two items that are not correlated to each other. I am not dogmatic about 10W60 anymore, but this class has its advantages in colder environments, such as spending the night in one of the hotels on the Passo Stelvio (2758mtr), were even in the summer it can freeze overnight. But a 15W50 or 15W40 will also do, provided that the content of ZDDP is right for the application.

This is covering yearly weather climates from hot to cold and also flash point is very hi may be not so good for -50C but if BMW MS decided to use on S54 world wide that choice of viscosity should do the job correct.
I think Redline has a clear opinion on 10W60 and I tend to agree ; in Germany, the S54 is generally used hard, either on the autobahn or on the track => try to find an E46 M3 CSL that hasn’t been battered on the Green-Hell?!

Conditions differ and I can imagine that Redline is questioning the suitability of a 10W60 for normal North-American driving conditions and given the excellent specification of their 5W30 on HTHS that exceeds the minimum SAE requirement for this grade by >40% they have a good point. I would certainly use it in my daily M54B30, when it would not be so difficult to get in Europe.

Another point I would like to bring is the Detergent! We already figure out the zddp and p. by real factors of oil test but lets move to Detergents number element. Now out of the several choices of oil I would like to compare which one has more detergent element to keep the the engine clean.
Good point ; during my investigation into engine oil, I had some thoughts and came to the same conclusion. Detergents aren’t necessarily bad, but from an end-users point of view not specific other than manufacturers performance claims that I find hard to believe.

For sure Diesel oils are more aggressive on detergents and gas. The Diesel fuel is 1) very strong and can be found more into the oil vs gas engines and also the its is very dirty. The diesel oils should have more detergent elements for exact that point. But not that protective at very hi revs engines because they are mineral based oil. Right after that it comes the point of how abusive we are to our engines and driving habits. If your engine sees 6k rpm per every 3 months I mean may be not that important to drive with the hi dollar oil.
Because of their high compression and combustion pressures, diesel engines, especially high performance diesels operate their wrist-pins in boundary mode lubrication, which requires high ZDDP as well, but how will this impact their catalytic converters and carbon-monoxide filters?

Going back to basics for a Road going S38 engine need. 15W-40 viscosity is OK to use, min of [email protected] and HTHS >3,7cp, 2500k miles oil change and it should keep the S38 in top clean condition.
Correct.

Raymond, do you have any information between 1989-1995 when BMW MS sold E34 M5 what was the service intervals ? If I am not mistaken the Maintenance book says oil change at 7500k Kilometers using oil grade not less than 15W-40 Mineral base oil. That said using US standards that is double the miles driven with one oil.
The BMW service scheme was every 7500km an oil change, with an inspection I at 15k km and an inspection II at 30k km.

I remember back in Europe eeeeeeeverybody was changing oil between 7500-10.000K Kilometers and I am sure we Europeans still do that. I remember a friend purchased E36 M3 3.0 S50B30 and he was distributing Repsol for Bulgaria and he was proud to change his oil at early 7000k kilometers.
Correct ; based on UOA’s, an oil exchange interval of 9k km for an S38 is OK when using a good quality oil (TBN>10). My M54B30 is at an interval of 11k-12k km, which still is much smaller than the recommended 15k km. Compare that to service intervals of 30k to 50k km for modern cars, but I think we both agree that that only benefits the car manufacturers and not the consumers.

Hear in US everybody is doing oil change at 3000k miles that's around 4500k kilometers half of what E34 M5 European owners did when the car sold New back home in EU. Using 10W-60 in S38 engine is an upgrade oil not downgrade.
Agreed.

Some older mechanics are leaving with the idea of using Syntetic oil on S38 it will damage the engine I have heard that from a very Reputable shop in Glendale, CA the Owner that advertises hear on the M5board...
I think that the many S38/M88/S14 that are operated on 10W60 for more than 15 years now prove otherwise, an observation that is supported by the UOA's shared here as well as on the E39 forum.

When I was using back in the days Castor 10W-60 TWS and then moved to 10W-60 Luquil Mouly I try pushing 5000k miles and after the moment I pass 3000k miles I have to top ~400ml oil at 5000k that should indicate that the oil is getting worn pass 3k miles. I went back to 3000k miles oil change Intervals 0 zero oil consumption, driving condition is moderate daily driving. Sure If if I push the engine up to the red line every traffic light their will be oil consumption. Even IMSA E34 M5 is using 10W60 for the race use.
I have observed the same with Castrol TWS in the S38’s that I have seen
 

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Discussion Starter #91 (Edited)
Raymond,

Take a look what I found when I was surfing the net.

Porsche, AG OEM Oil 10W60.

Cheers.
Anri
 

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I'm using Castrol EDGE 10w-60 syntethic oil in my fresh rebuilded S14 engine. I will use the same in my S38b38 freshly rebuilded engine. We have all year between 13º to 30º Celsius degrees weather so I think that oil weight is fine. For my Porsche 993tt I switched to Mobil V-Tiwn 20w-50 (yeah, made for Harleys air cooled engines).

Anri, you mentioned about the ZDDP aditive. I'm not expert oil nor oil aditives person, but two questions that perhaps you can chime in.

I read somewhere that oil manufacturers started to reduce the amount of ZDDP content in their oil in the mid 80's or so for some kind of regulations and yada yada....Then I ask my self, the automotive manufacturers wouldn't take this in count and change their tolerances/materials etc to compensate the lack of ZDDP in the newer engines? For example the S38 would really benefit by adding some ZDDP aditive as I read previous post from you, that you actually add some to your M6?

Is this the bottle would you recomend?




Second question: What would be the difference between using this ZDDP oil aditive vs, say, Motor Portect which is based on the Molybdenum component. Do you happen to know this?

Thanks,

-Diego
 

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Discussion Starter #93
I'm using Castrol EDGE 10w-60 syntethic oil in my fresh rebuilded S14 engine. I will use the same in my S38b38 freshly rebuilded engine. We have all year between 13º to 30º Celsius degrees weather so I think that oil weight is fine. For my Porsche 993tt I switched to Mobil V-Tiwn 20w-50 (yeah, made for Harleys air cooled engines).

Anri, you mentioned about the ZDDP aditive. I'm not expert oil nor oil aditives person, but two questions that perhaps you can chime in.

I read somewhere that oil manufacturers started to reduce the amount of ZDDP content in their oil in the mid 80's or so for some kind of regulations and yada yada....Then I ask my self, the automotive manufacturers wouldn't take this in count and change their tolerances/materials etc to compensate the lack of ZDDP in the newer engines? For example the S38 would really benefit by adding some ZDDP aditive as I read previous post from you, that you actually add some to your M6?
Diego,

Let simplify things.

Please read the previous replies. Raymond and I we agree what there are several oils that will fit the S38 engine need.

You have on the table: Viscosity, Density, ZDDP, these 3 important things can be found in several oils.

I feel Raymond and I we realize out of the typical Oil War topics that they are endless... We think that does not matter the Brand of oil Bottle you buy at your local store as long as these requirement are inside you are on the right path.

For me 10W60 is the best choice but 15W40 will work just as fine were you live with your climate.

I do like to change oil at early 3000 miles. Say others like to change the oil at higher miles. I have found that pass 3000k miles the oil is losing its strength...and to top oil till next oil change does not make sense to me..and I do oil change.

So if you have chose to use TWS and you feel comfortable with, you can add ZDDP additive and you will be fine the ZDDP additive will be a good additive to any oil to improve the ZDDP ppm level. Raymond has chosen Mobile 10W60 because at around 1300ppm he does not have to add anything. But say the TWS around 1000 or less and you need to add around 500ppm to make it on the higher level..

Remember one thing from me for Porsche air cooled engine version ! You have to warm up the engine from cold start even more than the S38 and that is on idle. The reason is that the Air cooled Porsche engine expends up to 4mm when warm from cold !!!! That is why I have never ever seen a Porsche air cooled engine not to Leak, period. The problem is that the Cyl heads are dry and the Block is heating up much faster and then when you push the engine hear we go the temperature changes of the metal. Most of Porsche owners do not realize that because they are not Technical in to it...That is why to own a Porsche is very very very expensive because one engine re-seal coast arm and leg.

Hope this will give a direction of choice!

Regards
Anri
 

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Hi Anri,

I do change my oil yearly or at max 3k KMS not miles in my engines :)

Yes, the brand and sometimes the viscocity of the oil is a endless topic of which is best. The truth is there is no definitive answer.

For the Castrol EDGE 10W-60 would you recomend me add a bottle of ZDDP given it has some "low" value of it? I don't know where is that chart that shows the content of ZDDP. But I do read here it has near 1000 or so.

Here is a chart of Mobil, check the V Twin 20w-50 level, it has 1750 or 1600, pretty high. Sure, this is only talking for the aircooled Porsche engine, not the S38 which is specific of this thread:byee55amg

Thoughts?

-Diego
 

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so far I'm really liking this oil in my 3.6

- Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60
 

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hi guys,

I've just picked up my ///M5 from my mechanic.
Tomorrow will leave from France to the lab 2 samples:

My M88 sample with Motul 300V 15w50 ( 25 months and more or less 4000km ).
my S38 sample with edge 10w60... ( 15 months and more or less 11000km ) I have switched this time to mobil 1 Extended Life; Castrol Edge was oil used by the previous owner.

asap the results to compare !:byebye:
 

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Hi guys,
here are the results...for my M88 and S38B38

I'm a bit afraid by both comments, but 2 engines are in very good "shape" no oil consumption between interval, no smoke etc...
I used to follow the ODB green and yellow leds to define the time to change oil... perhaps that is the mistake...???
any comments , and of course Raymond I would appreciate your opinion ...:typing:

Edit Raymondw: added the results as attachement

:3:
 

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Oliver,

Thanks for sharing these samples; lab report G06994 is the first that I have ever seen from a Motul 300V product. The good news is that there is nothing wrong with the oil and this should be an excellent performer; ZDDP elements are nicely confirmed to match the specification; viscosity is a bit lower then specification (17,8cst @100degrC), but this might be explained if a 15W50 grade oil is used for the first time and thus mixed with remnants of a previous (lower grade) engine oil. Flash point is a bit too low (198degrC), but group V esters don’t perform as good as group IV PAO’s so that’s OK too, although I expected a smaller drop from the spec (215degrC) for the mileage!

But overall a nice engine oil with plenty of life left to double or even triple the useful life; but in your case, I am worried about the level of lead’s and that should be an early warning. Given the fact that leaded fuel is not available since the mid 1990’s, and lead-based additives for quite some time as well, the source of the lead in your sample can only be your bearings.

This certainly is not normal since the bottom end of an M30/M88/S38 should last at least 300k km. Consider this as an early warning and Blackstone sees that as well, however, they suggest to reduce the exchange interval to 2500km to monitor closely what is happening and get confirmation. This wear is certainly not related to the usage of Motul 300V, but probably neglect or wrong engine oil in the past.

You know what happens when a bearing collapses? I advise you to be cautious and adhere to the advice of Blackstone to do another analysis in 2500km. If that analysis confirms the high level of lead, you are looking at bearing wear? Chances are that that is limited to piston rod bearings only, in that case, it shouldn’t be too difficult to resolve; some regard this is mandatory even when opening the sump for a gasket replacement.

As for your S38B38; I wouldn’t worry, especially since you have ditched the Castrol TWS for Mobil1 EL 10W60
 

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Discussion Starter #100 (Edited)
Hi,

Thanks for the replay with labs test.

I do have the same theory for your hi level of Lead as Raymond that the previous owner used a low quality oil. That said the bearing got ware and ones they shaved the first layer that is it..even using the best oil with 5000ppm zddp will not help and only continue to ware.

I have never ever seen S38-B35/M88 84mm, to have baring issues ever also the 3.6 86mm stroke.

Look at my first page on my personal E24 M6 I have 320km on original engine and my lead is 4-5 that is super low number and that is at 5000k miles oil change I never wait that long but I wanted to see what will be at 5000k miles. Sure at 3000k miles most likely all the number will be lower.

You should think to open up the oil pan and change your rod bearings before something bigger to happen.

Newer BMW waffles the rod bearings S54, S62, S85, S65......

I assume the reason is the reduced bearing surface and thickness in order to decrease the friction/drag of moving parts in order the engine to rev faster and lighter with less friction. You gain somewhere but you lose else were. That is why S62 had a problem with rod bearing and continue to have problems...and every 50k miles its a good thing to change the bearings.

Keeping in mind that new engine are design from first start to work with the best grate oil (10W-60) and full synthetic. S38 used mineral oil with less quality at the time present production 1989>up to and I have seen engines with original miles on it never opened ! My E24 M6 is one!

Regards
Anri
 
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