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Hi Anri,

That is good news. :smile

As for my M88/3; I have a second UOA that also shows a significant reduction in wear-elements. However I have yet to find the time to write a contribution in this thread, also because Blackstone performed three other tests simultaneously.

Just be patient.
 

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Discussion Starter #202
Hi Anri,

That is good news. :smile

As for my M88/3; I have a second UOA that also shows a significant reduction in wear-elements. However I have yet to find the time to write a contribution in this thread, also because Blackstone performed three other tests simultaneously.

Just be patient.
I am patient Ray.
You are the only one I know with complete S38/M88 from ground up rebuild the same as my complete rebuild 3.6l who started to do Oil Lab test to get some New Born engine data ware.
This 3.6 I put together it does rev like a motorcycle engine.

I put a lot of sweat in this complete 3.6 complete rebuild.
the outcome result is amazing, often I wish to have enthusiast like you to meet and have fun and visit each others garage to wrench on a cup of Jameson Whiskey and have tech discussion.
Oh well a key board is the solution I assume, isn't it?

Hurry up and post the info so we can discus some facts.
This E34M5 section is getting slow in post replied by minutes... not days,
I am afraid when another year pass or so...their will be several people hear and that is it...

I see how you are blending with another BMW model community, the shark era. A lot more people to meet with the Shark Era versus The Last hand build BMW M car the E34M5...
You are an owner of E28M5 sure you are fan of the Shark Era and this is a lot more fun to be around versus Handful E34M5 owners.
David is the only one person I know who has the largest E34M5 community...

I am waiting and waiting :smile

Regards
Anri
 

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I am afraid when another year pass or so...their will be several people hear and that is it...

Anri
True , I've also been noticing the number of posts dropping as E34 owners migrate to E39s , E60s and F10s over the last 2 years

2 years ago the E39 forum had the most views , now it's the E60 forum.

A function of the cars age I guess , it's a lot less headaches owning a 5 or 10 year old M5 than a 25 year old M5 !

The E28 M5 forum is very quiet but a low number of cars built
 

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i'm seeing a lot of discussion moving to the Facebook groups, e34 m5 enthusiasts etc. More instant feedback, photos etc.
 

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Hi Anri et al,

First of all, a small detour from the topic because Anri’s observation that the activity on the E34 and E28 groups are declining. I see that as well, but I think it should be a collaborative effort to return that trend. Yes, the facebook groups are increasing in popularity, but IMHO that is a different proposition and cannot be compared with a forum like this, even when adding media files is so much more intuitive.

I must admit that I have some responsibility in that as well, but bear in mind that it can never be however a single person who should pull or push a forum to keep it alive. This should be a collaborative effort of all members. I therefore propose to take this discussion offline by creating a separate thread to discuss what we can do to keep the E28S and E34S forums alive tomorrow.

Now back on topic. Between June and September, I performed five oil changes to four of my cars and a friend’s car (GD55450), of which I have submitted a sample to Blackstone for analysis. The report from my personal E34S M5 was already shared with you around the begin of July. The other samples were sent to Blackstone around halve September when we changed the oil on GD55450.

Note: I used to send samples by DHL or equivalent in the black sample kit canister from Blackstone. I observed that when doing so, it took three weeks before Blackstone laboratories submitted their reports back to me. In September, I sent four samples simultaneously in a carton box. This time, it took Blackstone two weeks to report back.

I then compared the track-tracing log that I kept of all shipments to Blackstone. The single shipments, thus unboxed where three weeks in transit, whilst the last collected shipment in a carton box was two weeks in transit. In all cases, the track tracing reported that the package arrived in the USA after about one week. However, the single shipments showed no activity in the second week of their transit-time until seven days after arriving in the USA when activity reappeared. This delay was not visible for the collected shipment in the carton box. I can’t prove it, but I suspect that the US customs keeps shipments that appear to be abnormal in quarantine for about a week before releasing them to local transporters for final delivery. Please note that this is not a complaint, but a mere observation. Anyhow, the four samples that were analysed by Blackstone in September were from (1) my E28S M5 (1018231), (2) my E32 735i (3152463), (3) my daily E39 530i touring (GV44730) and (4) a friends E34S M5 (GD55450).

GD55450: Report number H02541 is the first report for this car and the second with Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60 (note #1).



The first report with this oil (F61746) showed a slight increase of the wear compared to the last report with Castrol Edge Professional TWS (F13135). Report H02451 breaks this trend; all metals are lower than what has reported before. Compared to the cars averages, every wear-related element still is in the green zone, which is remarkable for a car that has almost 310000km on the odo.



The sudden increase in metal-wear reported in F61746 also coincided with a change of oil type & brand; combined with the fact that the third report marked a sharp decrease in metal-wear raises the question if a change of oil brand/type can result in a temporary increase of wear-related elements?

In any case, we (the owner and myself) are quite content with this report because it indicates that no major breakdowns have to be expected in the near future. We will continue monitoring with a reduced oil-exchange interval of around 6000km.

1018231: The second report for 1018231 (H02542) also marks a change from Castrol TWS Motorsport to Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60 (note #1). This is the fourth oil change since the rebuild, but the second one that has been tested.



The first oil fil was with Eurol Special Multigrade 15W40 mineral running in oil with subsequent oil changes at 738km (Eurol Special Multigrade 15W40), 2113km (Castrol TWS Motorsport), 8223km (Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60) and 13462km (Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60). Unfortunately, I did not submit a sample of any of the two first oil changes, but the second report of the fourth oil change shows a significant reduction in metal wear.



Blackstone also reported an increase in Potassium, which like Sodium is a trace-element used in coolant. Since I keep a detailed and accurate logbook, I know only 100 millilitres of coolant was added during this oil-life and this was only a top up for a non-measurable difference between the actual level and the cold-level marking on the reservoir. Blackstone confirms that this is very low, but their tests are also fairly sensitive. But since original M88/3 cylinder heads were NLA I was forced to have the cracks in the original head to be repaired. Whilst this was done with the best craftsmanship and process was involved, it cannot be ruled out that a slight leak will occur, but this must then also be related to an increase in Sodium, which is not the case. So what does cause Potassium? The next UOA will be interesting; we expect a further reduction of wear-related elements in the oil, also because the oil type/brand was not changed, which could answer the question that I raised with GD55450.

The other two reports will follow ASAP, but my mind has too much to handle right now so that will take a few days.

Notes:
1: Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60 has been renamed to Mobil1 Motorsport 10W60 in 2015.
 

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Discussion Starter #209
Raymond,

My personal and final view for the E34 M5, E28 M5, E24 M6 these engines are old and and already tired from poor maintenance from previous owners. (I am excluding rebuild engines like your M88 or mine S38 3.6 and others)
What we are doing now with these oil labs is simply seeing how the engine continue to ware out in strange behavior from one to another.

I have given my personal opinion already regarding the oil change intervals specially in Europe were owners rule is early oil changes at 7500k km some push to 10.000km this is 2 times beyond what I like.

Also for very cold climates it is a must to perform early oil changes because the fact that the oil will see very serious temperature changes,
and this kills the oil in no time 1) Because the engine will enrich with fuel the cold start period 2) The temperature changes from -10C up to ~95C when engine warm up. That put together is shorting the life of the oil.

Regarding the oil choice we already discussed in previous post you and I agree their is no bad oil between several brand we have on the table.
The choice of using 10W-60 is great but leads me to a bit over kill for what you are using your car for! and also other people...Street driving.
The 10W-60 is not a cheap oil and to do oil changes at 3000k miles is a bit expensive unless you don't care for the money you spent then its fine.
For my personal daily driver E24M6 I start using 15W-40 Total Diesel TIR with hi Zink contain this oil is New to US market and I can get that thru SSF for just 3.50 a quart.
Oil changes are at 3000 miles and that is my thing.

Regarding your M88 cylinder head disaster I never understood at the time of your rebuild why you never ever got Used cyl head in a good condition ???!!! At that time to find cyl head for M88/3 was very easy, Raymond !!!
I never understood why you repaired this cyl head with zillion cracks....
Don't get me wrong the person who did the job may be done very clean and good job but in case of human Error that is Unacceptable in case of a failure, Raymond !!! At the time period of your rebuild at Ebay.de was flooded with M88 heads.....also UK junk yards who are dealing with BMW engine as well.
Its not like now days were the M88/S38 parts are slowly disappearing...
If you have a failure in this M88 cylinder head its all your bad choice of repairing your bad unit but lets think positive and continue to follow the oil lab.

Back to your post, I would not be concern about losing 100ml of coolant because may be your cap is old or some minor vapor occurs in the system. If your system is absolute perfect without any leaks then it will be a concern.
Knowing the BMW side plastic old tanks we can note some coolant leak on a cold start that will not be seen on the ground and little hear little there is how you are going to add.

I have been driving for about 5-7 years with 10W-60 started with Castrol moved to Liquil Mouly 10W-60 after I started to test some real data.
I think for daily driving and spirited street driving its not need for 10W-60. For the race track to use 10W-60 is a pice of mind.
I know an E46M3 shop owner tracks his car with Diesel oil 15W-40 for very long time on the race track, so far no problems.

Regards
Anri
 

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Hi Anri,

I agree with almost everything you wrote, except:

Don't get me wrong the person who did the job may be done very clean and good job but in case of human Error that is Unacceptable in case of a failure, Raymond !!! At the time period of your rebuild at Ebay.de was flooded with M88 heads.....also UK junk yards who are dealing with BMW engine as well.
Its not like now days were the M88/S38 parts are slowly disappearing...
This was the case for S38B36 and S38B38 engines, but M88 and M88/3 parts were in 2009 already very rare. I used my entire network back to source parts across Europe. Some where found, but only complete engines that needed a rebuild anyways and since I wanted to maintain matching numbers and there was no warranty, this was not an option. In the end I traced a s/h M88/3 head from the previous business partner from member Euro-M5, but also that one needed serious work. I bought it as a reference and back-up plan, but that was it.

We discussed the matter with my engine-builder, who also has done quite a lot of Colombo V12's and he proposed this resolution. Was I happy with that? ..... No, but if BMW would have casted new M88/3 heads I certainly would have dropped another 4k Euro for a new head, however the only thing that BMW came up with was a new 356ED engine built with a S38B35 cylinder head. This road would mean the loss of the classic M88/3 appearance, which I was not prepared to accept.

Believe me that at the time I was very frustrated with BMW fur such poor spare parts policy and I even considered selling the M5's and making the move to a classic Mercedes Benz...... But after some cooling down time and with no other option available, we gave the two heads to my engine-builder who preferred to continue with my original head. The risks that you mention here are very true and I was very aware, but within the project's scope and timeline there was simply no other option, hence why I accepted the risk of relying to craftsmanship. :crying
 

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Just a comment on forum activity - the real thing forums give us that Facebook doesnt is a searchable archive of mechanical advice and technical information, it is really important that we keep this going - as this thread demonstrates.

Even if Anri is right (and I suspect he is) that most of these oil analyses are simply about charting a late stage in life of engines that have already been through a great deal, with their future largely determined - it is still great to have so many analyses to compare to.

Let's keep posting !
 

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The other two reports that I received in September are (1) GV44730 and (2) 3152643, both of which are non S38/M88, but in the interest of the day are worth sharing.

GV44730 is my daily driver, a late 2003 E39 530i Touring. This is the first report since the switch from Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W60 to Mobil1 New Life (NL) 0W40. This is more close to what BMW requires for the M54B30 engine (5W40 LL01) then the 10W60 grade that was used before that especially during the winter is a little too thick for the small trips in and around town. The subjective experiences with the Mobil1 NL 0W40 were very good. The running characteristics, especially in the cold have improved. However, the hard facts from the UOA give a different viewpoint.



With exception of aluminium and chromium, metal wear has increased throughout the entire line. The previous reports show a little elevated copper wear, but zero lead wear. With this first report on new Life 0W40, especially the lead has increased. Now, this still is in line with Blackstone’s Universal averages, but a steep increase from the GV44730’s own averages.



Now it is too early to draw conclusions (yet), especially on a single sample, but it appears that the engine wear has increased, which raises the following questions

Q1: Is it possible that a switch of oil type / brand, in this particular case from Castrol Edge Professional 10W60 to Mobil1 NL 0W40 can result in temporary elevated engine wear ?
Q2: If this is not the case, is it the LL01 approved oil itself that is at fault or just the longer service interval of little over 14000km (note #1) ?
Q3: Does the M54 also benefit from a higher viscosity engine oil, e.g. a 10W60 grade ?.

The answer to the first question that may be predicted by the most recent UOA report for GD55450. We observed a similar increase of engine-wear after switching from Castrol Edge Professional TWS to Mobil1 Extended Life (EL) 10W60 in the summer of 2012 (lab report F61476). However, according to the third UOA (report H02541) carried out in September 2015 this resolved completely. The next UOA for GV44730 that is scheduled around April 2016 will therefore be very interesting.

3152643 is our BMW E32 735i. Although it is against our nature, the historical data indicated that the tested oil had a service of almost 20000km. One would expect that the Total Base Number would be in the cellar by the, but Blackstone proves that this is not the case.



Because 3152643 has been in storage since late 2004, it may very well be the case that an oil service has been performed after the last documented service in 2002….. we always keep the bills and the work-orders as proof, but because 3152643 was business owned it may be that one bill was missed. This would not only have been more in line with the tested TBN, but also explains for the low amount of phosphorous that resembles that of the later blend of Castrol TWS Motorsport instead of the ‘Formula RS SAE 10W60 racing Syntec’. Although an exact estimation is impossible, it is likely that 3152643 has been spend an oil change somewhere in 2003 and that the real life of the tested oil is around 7000-8000 kilometres.

1: The elevated levels of aluminium and chromium probably comes from pistons and piston-rings.
2: The elevated levels of copper and lead points towards the bearings
3: The elevated level of iron could be the result from either item 1 or item 2.

I must admit that after the installation of a factory new cylinder head in 2002, the engine started to develop a slight audible tick that was traced to the bottom end. However, this only occurred when releasing the throttle. However, 3152643 was put in storage in 2004 and thus lowered the priority for resolving this. When the engine of 1018231 was rebuilt in 2009, we asked for a diagnosis, but the noise did not occur at the doctor’s office. In fact, this report is the first indication that there is an issue with the piston(s) and bearings.

Ignoring the fact that the cars (1) usage and (2) economic value does not justify for a full engine rebuild, this report may trigger some limited actions. The first action is to resolve the high amount of fuel found in the sample. We believe this is caused by the twenty-eight year old injectors that never have been serviced. The plan is to remove them during the winter for shipment to Bernd Prickartz, a renowned specialist in Linnich (Germany).

Another limited action that we could take is opening the oil-pan for an inspection of the con-rod bearings. Given the limited (material) cost their preventive replacement will then be a no brainer. If there is a causal connection to the suspected piston and piston-ring wear, the chromium and aluminium numbers will also drop. It may be possible that this also works the other way around, but we’ll see. A full rebuild is (and) will not be considered because of the earlier mentioned reasons and we know that M30’s can reach a very old age.

Notes:
1: This is still within the factory recommended service interval of 15000km.
2: Compared to most of its direct competitors, Mobil1 NL 0W40 has superior HTHS (3,8cp @150°C compared to the most of its direct competitors (0W40 and 5W40 grade).
 

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Q3: Does the M54 also benefit from a higher viscosity engine oil, e.g. a 10W60 grade ?.
I had 528i with M52b28 engine, near same as M54. I used 15w40 no problem. It had 330000km when i sold it. My brother has 530i also, now over 300k km. He also use 15w40 oil and no problems. I try to take oil sample and sent it to lab.
 

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Great update Raymond. Very interesting to observe the change in wear after you switched oil brand on the daily driver. I think it must be right that a change in oil has the potential to cause a step increase in wear - for example if the new oil did a less good job at coating key components causing more wear on startup ?

But I think it is also right that a longer service run could also be a significant factor. In previous posts on this thread we have discussed the rate of dropoff in oil, and me and other owners have observed that usage seems to increase significantly after a certain lifespan. So I'm sure it is plausible that wear increases after this lifespan too.

This inspires me to get on with my own oil changes. I have two to do at present. My E34 M5 (for which I posted an analysis a couple of months ago) is due an annual change - although mileage is low. And my new daily driver (Celica ST205 GT4) needs its maiden oil change under my ownership.
 

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It will be interesting to see if the next oil sample continues with the same results.

Change in oil acting as a flush agent from the previous oil ?
 

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Hi,

Thanks for posting.

Your test looks good. The metal is a bit over what would be a ideal but nothing to worry, yet.

Why did you chose to use 20W-60 Viscosity ?
In Bulgaria the distances are short weather is bit on the colder side.
The 20W-60 is more race/endurance oil were the engine sees lots of rpm and for long time.

For what your car is use for 10W-60, 15w-40 or even 15w-50 would be ideal for your environment.

Regards
Anri
 

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I drive my car spiritedly on weekends, my usual driving trips are 200-400 km long. I did 50 laps on a local track with this oil. If an oil is good for endurance driving, then it is good for my engine. Report confirms that.
For the winter season I changed to Castrol 10W-60, I will do 5000km and send for test to see if lower viscosity improves wear during cold engine starts, as this is currently my concern with the 20W-60.

Maybe I should start a thread for what I did to my car...
 

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I had 528i with M52b28 engine, near same as M54. I used 15w40 no problem. It had 330000km when i sold it. My brother has 530i also, now over 300k km. He also use 15w40 oil and no problems. I try to take oil sample and sent it to lab.
Here it is. 340000km very hard driven. Cold starts in winter, lead foot driver. Few years ago crankcase ventilation system freezed (typical problem on these) and oils vent out. Driven few km without oil pressure, but looks like it did not do any harm.

 

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Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this.

I'm about to do a change on my S38B36 and given TWS 10w-60 has been discontinued (and is now priced here as if it were actual liquid gold, nearly A$20/Ltr..).

I'm considering two oils at present, both the factory spec'd viscosity 15w-40:

Liqui-Moly 15w-40 High Tech Touring (No idea on zinc, but should be 1000ppm or so given ACEA B4 I'm lead to believe...)
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_1095.html?OpenDocument&land=DE

The other, from an Australian company is the Penrite Semi-Synthetic 15w-40 (Full Zinc).
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=1&id_viscosity=114&id_products=360

EDIT:
Could only see VANTAGE 15w-40 available in stores.. -> http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=1&id_viscosity=114&id_products=720
One of my local shops was running a 30% off deal, so grabbed a 10L tub, $5.80/Ltr, worse case the W124 260E can burn through it.

I will be sending off for analysis a sample of the current oil (Probably edge 10w-60 given the workshop who serviced it last) and again at regular intervals.

I have access to Liqui-Moly at good prices through a friend, so if the above 15w-40 or their 10w-40/10w-60 is suitable oil please let me know.

Also, given I don't rack up the km's on my M5, what's the recommended change interval by time?
 
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