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Guys on some M3 boards are talking about this new trans oil from bmw.
MTF-LT-2, P/N 83 22 0 309 031 is the part number. They say it improves the shift quality of their M3's and is the current factory fill. Costs just over $100 for a 5L jug. Anyone (i.e. LSCMAN) know if the same spec gear oil is used in the m3 and m5's trans?
 

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mottati said:
Guys on some M3 boards are talking about this new trans oil from bmw.
MTF-LT-2, P/N 83 22 0 309 031 is the part number. They say it improves the shift quality of their M3's and is the current factory fill. Costs just over $100 for a 5L jug. Anyone (i.e. LSCMAN) know if the same spec gear oil is used in the m3 and m5's trans?
From a BMW Sep 2004 Service Engineering document I found on BMWTIS.com:

"E. From model year 2004 some manual transmission are filled with Castrol "MTF-LT-2" lifetime fluid. This fluid has the same properties as the "MTF-LT-1" fluid indicated above in section D. The "MTF-LT-1" fluid may be mixed and/or substituted for the "MTF-LT-2" manual transmission fluid.

No oil change is required for the entire service life of these transmissions."

Personally, I would just use Redline fluids every 30K. It's only $8 - $9 bucks a quart and I think a M5 needs less than 2 qts.
 

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JoeCinVA said:
From a BMW Sep 2004 Service Engineering document I found on BMWTIS.com:

"E. From model year 2004 some manual transmission are filled with Castrol "MTF-LT-2" lifetime fluid. This fluid has the same properties as the "MTF-LT-1" fluid indicated above in section D. The "MTF-LT-1" fluid may be mixed and/or substituted for the "MTF-LT-2" manual transmission fluid.

No oil change is required for the entire service life of these transmissions."

Personally, I would just use Redline fluids every 30K. It's only $8 - $9 bucks a quart and I think a M5 needs less than 2 qts.
I believe it's been documented to NOT use redline in our transmissions, it can cause some type of damage, not sure exactly what but there was a huge discussion about this here a while back.
Mike
 

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The new LT2 is manufactured by Castrol instead of Esso. They are supposedly compatible for mixing, but this surely does not mean they are the same. I would not assume the LT2 product is "better" though. It sounds like they switched suppliers, since BMW has a closer relationship with Castrol. I am guessing the original Esso association was thru the trans mfr Getrag. If LT2 is a thinner viscosity, this may explain M3 community claims that it shifts better. Again, I seriously doubt the products are the same. If they were, BMW would not have changed the LT# moniker & trans labeling.

Of course, early rumors are often distorted, so I don't (yet) trust folks' assessments about improvements in shift quality. You get the same comments about fresh tires. Anyone who changes old fluid will notice a remarkable improvement in shift quality...even if you replace like with like. It sounds like LT1 and LT2 are priced the same (around $20/qt). I would like to hear from somebody that has FRESH LT1 in their tranny who drained it to install LT2! That would provide some insight into shift quality.
 

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JoeCinVA said:
Personally, I would just use Redline fluids every 30K.
Joe,

Redline is primarily a race lube and it is not API approved. These primitive garage lab products are not suitable for use in any car that sees over 3K mi between fluid changes. Their lubricant stabilizing additive packages are mostly sourced from Chevron Chemical & poured in their base product like Koolaid. This is not how you develop a quality lubricant for extended service interval use.

You may be interested in hearing that Redline transmission lubricants destroyed countless Getrag 6 speed transmissions and Borg Warner T-5 Transmissions. The Toyota community has fire in their eyes when you mention that company. Redline admits fault, but even today, there is no warning in any of their literature. Labels still claim compatibility with everything. Redline products are tested by consumer guinea pigs, since it's cheaper than proper research, development, testing, tweaking and final certification. It amazes me that legal issues have not killed them. Both Toyota and Ford had documented warranty failures relating to consumers switching to Redline. Their engrg groups will tell you all about it. Getrag has issued formal letters specifically warning against the use of Redline and any unapproved lubricants. BMW makes the same statements. There are many threads on this subject. Also be aware that Getrag transmissions are not rebuildable because internal parts are not sold to anyone. A Getrag reman M5 transmission costs $5K. Mitsubishi/Dodge and Toyota racers have been dealing with Getrag parts unavailbility for years. Only now, Getrag has released a trickle of 6spd service parts for those older vehicles....not E39. I know a nice guy who has dumped $22K in his Dodge Stealth drivetrain repairs. Compatible fluid is a serious issue.
 

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Lscman and Mottati,

Thanks for the info on the redline stuff. I'll do some more searching. Interestingly enough, a lot of the BMW magazines like Roundel and Bimmer have steadfastly recommended the Redline tranny and gear oils with appropriate change intervals in their tech articles. I've had no problems using their products on my 174K mile and still running 1995 325iC but to be on the safe side w/ my M5, I'll just use the factory fluids. Thanks again.
 

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Lscman said:
Joe...quit goofin' on us now, there is no BMWTISdotcom (lol). I wish..
No.. seriously, check it out. It's a great resource. Besides online diagnostics (which you can't do unless you have the tool), the site has access to the most current service bulletins, measures, repair procedures, parts catalog, accessory installation instructions, new model update info, and electrical schematics. I check it out every couple of months.
 

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JoeCinVA said:
No.. seriously, check it out. It's a great resource. Besides online diagnostics (which you can't do unless you have the tool), the site has access to the most current service bulletins, measures, repair procedures, new model update info, and electrical schematics. I check it out every couple of months.
My browser still says:

We can't find "bmwtis.com"

will try later.
 

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JoeCinVA said:
Lscman and Mottati,

Thanks for the info on the redline stuff. I'll do some more searching. Interestingly enough, a lot of the BMW magazines like Roundel and Bimmer have steadfastly recommended the Redline tranny and gear oils with appropriate change intervals in their tech articles. I've had no problems using their products on my 174K mile and still running 1995 325iC but to be on the safe side w/ my M5, I'll just use the factory fluids. Thanks again.

I do know ZF cautions against the use of Redline product in the Corvette ZF 6spd transmission used between 1988 and 1996. I have no informating cautioning for or against alternative fluids in the 3 series ZF variants. Obviously the M3 crowd using the ZF have developed a good track record for Redline. The same can not be said for the Getrag 6spd.
 

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Lscman and others:

I'm installing a short shift kit next week. Since Redline is out, are there any recomended transmission fluids? Royal Purple?

Derek
 

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Suretyagent said:
Lscman and others:

I'm installing a short shift kit next week. Since Redline is out, are there any recomended transmission fluids? Royal Purple?

Derek
Recommended by whom? The experts (BMW & Getrag) recommend $20/qt factory fill, so that's what I run. I change my MTF-LT1 every couple years. If the required transmission lube had industry-standard specifications for gear wear and viscosity (Getrag and/or BMW specified), we could intelligently choose an alternative without guessing. Fact is, the factory fill is a unique, proprietary full synthetic gear lube with unspecified characteristics and substitution involves some risk. Last time I checked, only BMW & Maserati used this transmission design, so finding alternative lubes that meet spec is challenging.
 

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Lscman said:
Recommended by whom? The experts (BMW & Getrag) recommend $20/qt factory fill, so that's what I run. I change my MTF-LT1 every couple years. If the required transmission lube had industry-standard specifications for gear wear and viscosity (Getrag and/or BMW specified), we could intelligently choose an alternative without guessing. Fact is, the factory fill is a unique, proprietary full synthetic gear lube with unspecified characteristics and substitution involves some risk. Last time I checked, only BMW & Maserati used this transmission design, so finding alternative lubes that meet spec is challenging.
I was asking you for a recommendation because I respect your opinion.
 

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Since Redline is out, are there any recomended transmission fluids? Royal Purple?
I'm sure Rick would say that the only safe choice for a Getrag is the BMW factory fill. Everything else is a gamble, which of course is up to you, but I went with factory fluid and I can confirm that there is an improvement to shift quality just by changing in fresh OEM fluid.
 

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Suretyagent said:
I was asking you for a recommendation......
I incorrectly interpreted your question, sorry. I thought you were looking for professional recommendation for an alternative approved lubricant...none exists.

Anyway, there you have it...I run factory fill.

Reasoning:

Based upon uncertainty, risk and lack of additive data & lube specs, I choose to follow professional recommendations by BMW & Getrag. After digging, I have heard nothing to suggest OEM fill is less than optimal. Lubricants that minimize friction tend to degrade synchro engagement action (shift quality). What I'm saying is the best anti-wear lubricants will invariably compromise shift quality. This is what the lifetime lube is all about. BMW clearly did not fill these transmissions with a short-lived lubricant that optimizes shift quality, & frankly, I applaud them.
 

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We just changed the tranny fluid on an e46 M3 with the new updated fluid from BMW for a client. Still waiting on a report to see how much difference he feels in it (I am sure it will be smoother due to the fresh fluid). We have also had some good results with Amsoil ATF in a couple of client's cars. Very pronounced difference in shifting smoothness and yet to see or hear of anyone really having any issues with seals because of it. As stated above, even a switch to new fresh factory fluid will help smoothen out the shiftinf in any vehicle. That is the safest way to go in a situation with so many variables up in the air. Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #19

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mottati said:
old thread!
While that link may be the final answer to the toyota getrag, it dose not seem to necessarily apply to the bmw getrag, as you can read in this link...
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=64298
Mike
oic, but imho M3 getrag 226 got the same plastic bushing as Supra 233, shifting became sloppy & sticky with D4, now it is fed with LT-2 and i can tell the tranny feels so much happier. just feeling lucky that this 2nd tranny suffered no major damage, just a fair bit of worn metal sludge (bits of synchro) settled out at the bottom of drain plug. synchro of the first one worn out for 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears, no fast shifting was possible during spirited driving (gears would crunch or gear stick would kick back real hard (popping out to neutral) and hit my wrist with vengence.
 
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