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New SPEC clutch/flywheel/track report

2803 Views 39 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  Teutonaddict, 
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I replied to the SPEC poll thread, but figured I would start a new one that had the specific topic heading:

I put in the stage 3 SPEC Hybrid 3 weeks ago. New version. Kevlar/Organic hybrid. I will have around 1,000 miles on it by tomorrow. I am taking the car to VIR Virginia International Raceway to see how this car performs on a 3.3 mile roadcourse...I'll give ya'll a report then if you want it...

So far the clutch feels good. Oh yeah I opted for the lightweight flywheel too. Chatter is obvious outside the car but I think everybody already knows that. As for durability of the clutch, we shall see.

Bought from Ben at Rogue. Nice guy. Total I believe was 1750 or thereabouts.

By the time I get back I should have about 1,500 miles on the clutch/flywheel combo, with 200 miles being hardcore track time if weather permits. I hope the stock brakes hold up (Stock hardware with race pads, complete brake fluid replaced with superblue and powersteering as well, and stainless lines)


POST TRACK WEEKEND.

Clutch and flywheel now have about 1,600 miles on it. They also have 2 days and eight hot sessions around VIR fullcourse. Just got back (225 mile trip) home and everything is fine. Clutch/flywheel worked flawlessly. My issues started out as a VERY BAD brake shutter that took 3 full sessions to go away. I originally thought it was a warped rotor, but ended up most likely being the conversion of street to race pad. Hawk HP10's.

By the second day I had no issues, and simply enjoyed flogging the car to the limits of the brakes, suspension and tires. Some observations:

1. Stock braking is not too bad. I honestly didnt expect the car to stop as well as it did for its weight, and stock pilots. I did get brake fade with the Hawk HP10's after awhile, but they held up pretty good. Overall an "OK" pad. Not great bite, but decent. I have not had the wheels off to check wear on the pad or rotor. Can anyone confirm or deny if the PFC 01's have a pad that fits our stock caliper? Its basically the best pad out there for the track.

2. Dinan Stage3 Koni suspension is not a poser mod. Its a little soft (anyone know the spring rates?) but its very compliant over gators and doesnt let the chasis unsettle in less-than-perfect transitions. Its a very good compromise street to track. I was on firm setting. I had the shop dial in -1.9 front, -2.2 rear camber. 6.0 castor with .20 total toe. My feeling is that I could/should have dialed in more camber up front. Anyone agree/disagree?

3. Pilots are probably not a good choice for track use, but not unusable if you want to go have fun. They will keep you out of trouble, but do go away quicker (push) each session if you run multiple HARD sessions in a day. I felt that 42 pounds hot was a decent pressure with ambient outside temps around 50 degrees.

4. The UUC shifter that is installed in my car has a dead spot left of second gear!?! Is this normal? What I mean is that There seems to be a place right below reverse that you can "attempt" to put the shifter in, left of second. Under quick downshifting manuvers I tried to put the car in second and missed the gate to second and hit this deadend....New to me.

5. The stock LSD is decent for high speed sweepers, but a variable lockup or quaife would be nice for powering out of slow, tight exits. First gear in the M5 (which I really like) really necessitates a quaife type unit. Probably a mod for hard-core track rats, or guys that want everything offered the car. Is there a swap out there from another model/year that can be used?

Im not sure of all the issues of the previous SPEC clutches, but I dont seem to have any. Keep in mind I only have 1,600 miles on mine, but I did baptise it by fire.

My car has 87,000 miles on it. Bought it 3 weeks ago knowing the clutch was fried. The Dinan mods were obviously done by the previous owner. Pretty **** impressive car to flog it like I did and have it perform so well. THEN drive a couple hundred miles home! Whenever I get a little nitpicky about some of the performance aspects I had to tell myself to quit comparing it to my racecar...900 pounds lighter, on Hoosiers, and with a power/weight ratio of about 7. Once I put it in prespective I just shook my head and smiled. Really was amazed at the performance of this sedan. :M5thumbs:

Hope some of this helps....Sorry for the obnoxiously long post!
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M
EdP said:
I think Jerry is reading the same Dinan spec sheet as me, which says exactly that. I've also wondered why it's different. I also think the clutch is getting a decent workout at the track, especially if you have DSC off and are hammering the gas at each apex.
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Ummm, Ed If your on the Track, you have Sport on and DSC off. It is too invasive.

If you need to leave DSC on at the track, then the Track is not the place for you to be. :flag:

Oh My apologies you said DSC OFF. :cheers: If it is off then its the tires coping the hammering.
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MIB said:
So check this out for a proceedure.

If all of this is correct, and I don't know either way, but this is what would be requiried.

1. You run the tank down to Half.

2. Install your Coilovers.

3. Sit in drivers seat while they corner balance the car.

4. Fill up with Fuel

5. Get out of the car whilst they Do an alignment.

hiha Does that about cover it? :1:
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No, you have to read the fine print :haha2: . The setup is for Dinan Stage 3 suspension ONLY. So if you run the tank to halfway, and install coilovers, specs will not (necessarily) work for you!!! :wroom:
Regards,
Jerry
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EdP said:
I think Jerry is reading the same Dinan spec sheet as me, which says exactly that. I've also wondered why it's different. I also think the clutch is getting a decent workout at the track, especially if you have DSC off and are hammering the gas at each apex.
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Ed
I think DSC will get you in trouble at the track. Just when you want to add power to head for the apex or power out of a turn ( or to catch the TTO) or othrwise steer with the throttle, the DSC cuts the power off because it tries to prevent the back end from moving. This is exactly what you want to do in a controlled manner on the track. You may not spin, but you will be very slow.
Regards,
Jerry
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gsfent said:
No, you have to read the fine print :haha2: . The setup is for Dinan Stage 3 suspension ONLY. So if you run the tank to halfway, and install coilovers, specs will not (necessarily) work for you!!! :wroom:
Regards,
Jerry
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O.K., but the specs are for Camber/castor adjustment.

I have the K-mac adjustables.

All I was getting at was, it seems interesting, that you adjust the Suspension (If ajustable like coilovers) with Half a tank and driver to corner balance,

But when adjusting the Caster/camber toe/heel you are Full tank and no driver.

Just interesting. :cheers:
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DSC is an absolute burden to anyone on a track. DSC "on" is equivalent to fun "off."
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Redshift said:
DSC is an absolute burden to anyone on a track. DSC "on" is equivalent to fun "off."
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hiha I have another word I would like to tell the DSC to do also. Funny, it starts with the same letter as Fun Off. :1:
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MIB said:
hiha I have another word I would like to tell the DSC to do also. Funny, it starts with the same letter as Fun Off. :1:
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:D :D :D
Regards,
Jerry
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S
rear camber is determined by ride height -- Dinan lowers the car about 3/4" and the resulting negative camber will wear the insides of the tires somewhat faster if you do a lot of freeway driving -- if you do some cornering they even out

i think PF 97s are the best choice in front for track -- they have a lower friction coefficient than 01s which is just fine with the heavily boosted m5 brakes -- they also wear longer and the friction coefficient is a better match to OEM or Axxis Ultimate rear pads. i used the 97s on the street for nearly a month recently with no problems and almost no squeal - don't think they wore the disks much either even after they were "un-bedded"
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ps - my UUC shifter seems to have a dead spot around 2nd as well, but i also think that there are some tolerance issues in the m5 transmission/linkage that causes car-car variation
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stever said:
rear camber is determined by ride height -- Dinan lowers the car about 3/4" and the resulting negative camber will wear the insides of the tires somewhat faster if you do a lot of freeway driving -- if you do some cornering they even out"
Click to expand...

While rear camber is influenced by ride height, it is adjustable on e39's at the rear. I've known of a few people who run less than dinan's recommended rear camber to save on rear tire wear, for street use.
Mike
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Echoing what mottati says, my car is probably 1.0-1.5" lower than stock in the rear, yet I was still able to adjust to -1.8 degrees camber. I do not recommend any more under any circumstances, but to each his own :cheers:
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Busy thread...

MIB,
I can only comment on the clutch chatter from inside the cockpit with a raised idle. I did this in my driveway, parked, holding a steady rpm. I did this at 900, 1000, 1100 rpms. I still could hear chatter, although it was reduced. Its not rocket science. Your right, I care less about the noise than I care about pure performance, but may chip the car down the road. The reduced chatter will be a positive side effect of chipping as I would do it for other reasons.

As for the clutch thoughts, I did note to "keep in mind I only have 1600 miles on the car". I very well know it doesnt conclude much other than the break-in miles and some good beating afterward it has managed well. You will use a clutch on-track more agressively than on the street, especially in a car that is not a racecar where clutch pressure and engagement is much higher/harder than the M5's soft "benign" pedal. PS- If you can rev match every shift on-track with this car's clutch setup and not get some slippage, your definately better than me!

Bri,
April is too early for me especially your dates cuz I am having surgery on my go pedal foot april 1st, and will probably be getting out of a cast that weekend! My next event will be in the Viper for the SCCA races the weekend of May6-8!

Front camber: I definately have it. Keep in mind I inherited the suspension from the previous owner so he may have done something to get more but I highly doubt it. I have the history of alignments performed on this car and the last one was 1.9L 1.7R Fronts...I didnt like the rest of the setup so I had the alignment changed based on some searching on this forum on Dinan stg3 setups. I didnt like that spec so I upped the front camber and dropped the rear to 2.2...I read somewheres that 2.5 was recommended. So I asked for 1.9 up front on both wheels and they did it. Have the printouts, but dont have a scanner at home....

Dave,
Thanks for all the pad history and info! I got my track pads from Dave Z. He did help alot! I said PFC01's werent available, but was hoping that someone would prove him wrong (never hurts to ask).

DSC on? How the hell could you track a car with it on? I forgot to turn it off one session and didnt get past turn 1 without it going crazy. I thought the car had a problem with the motor. Lol.

I hope someone can shed some light on the camber mystery, and Rob I'll give you a call - got your PM.
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Bugeater said:
Busy thread...

MIB,
I can only comment on the clutch chatter from inside the cockpit with a raised idle. I did this in my driveway, parked, holding a steady rpm. I did this at 900, 1000, 1100 rpms. I still could hear chatter, although it was reduced. Its not rocket science. Your right, I care less about the noise than I care about pure performance, but may chip the car down the road. The reduced chatter will be a positive side effect of chipping as I would do it for other reasons.

As for the clutch thoughts, I did note to "keep in mind I only have 1600 miles on the car". I very well know it doesnt conclude much other than the break-in miles and some good beating afterward it has managed well. You will use a clutch on-track more agressively than on the street, especially in a car that is not a racecar where clutch pressure and engagement is much higher/harder than the M5's soft "benign" pedal. PS- If you can rev match every shift on-track with this car's clutch setup and not get some slippage, your definately better than me!
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Cool Bugeater,

It seems wrong calling you that. hiha Does that mean you ride bikes, with an open face helmet? (If you do that in Oz you have to pick the bugs out of your teeth.)

Does your clutch have a Sprung centre, or is it like the stock one?

As the Rollover noise is totally under your control, I have lived with it for the past 18 months. It was a small trade off for huge performance gains. I never had a problem with it either.

I hated the thought of pussying around constantly concerned about clutch problems. A little noise only at idle with clutch out was nothing.

But now that its fixed, it even better that there are no longer any real compromises on the car.

With my setup, even if I got it all wrong, I doubt it would slip much. With my custom flywheel, one piece steel, I was able to double the clamping force.

33,000 Kms Zero problems, 100's of QM passes. Its all good.

:flag:
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Bugeater said:
Or other pad choices for stock calipers?
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Carbotech XP9(1109),these are the pads I'm trying next.Alot of the BMWCC instructors are using this pad with grest results.They are rotor-friendly,non-corrosive and full ceramic and last a long time and dust less than OEM pads.They are a full track pad that can work on the street.They use an actual BMW backing plate.In speaking to a friend who races and has experience with this pads, he has used these pads on the street with no issues with squealing.
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Redshift said:
DSC is an absolute burden to anyone on a track.
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Still trying to figure out why so many read DSC "on" when I said "off." but thanks for stating the obvious ouich
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EdP said:
Still trying to figure out why so many read DSC "on" when I said "off." but thanks for stating the obvious ouich
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Sorry Ed, in context it sounded like the button was off, which is default mode leaving traction control on. You are correct, you said "DSC off" which means traction control nanny off! :flag:
Regards,
Jerry
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M5HP said:
Carbotech XP9(1109),these are the pads I'm trying next.Alot of the BMWCC instructors are using this pad with grest results.They are rotor-friendly,non-corrosive and full ceramic and last a long time and dust less than OEM pads.They are a full track pad that can work on the street.They use an actual BMW backing plate.In speaking to a friend who races and has experience with this pads, he has used these pads on the street with no issues with squealing.
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The XP9 are terrific pads. I used them for many years on my Corvette coupe and Z06. They are all of the things you said above. If you end up needing more stopping power, try the XP10. I use those on my 332i track beast and they are great, although they dust a LOT. For those with StopTech rotors, be wary as I found that the XP9 does not seem to be compatible with the rotor for some reason. It kept leaving deposits and causing harsh vibrations. Should be fine on stock rotors though.
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EdP said:
Still trying to figure out why so many read DSC "on" when I said "off." but thanks for stating the obvious ouich
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I did not read your post wrong at all. My response did not have anything to do with your post. Don't be so paranoid :1:

I was just taking part in the thread. lovelove
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Redshift said:
I did not read your post wrong at all. My response did not have anything to do with your post. Don't be so paranoid :1:

I was just taking part in the thread. lovelove
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I didn't mean to single out your post, my bad. :cheers:
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M5HP said:
Carbotech XP9(1109),these are the pads I'm trying next. Alot of the BMWCC instructors are using this pad with grest results...They use an actual BMW backing plate...
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I recall HadE55NowM5, an early member (Elliott), had good success with the CarboTech pads. At that time, CarboTech had not sourced the M5 backers (any E39 backing plate, actually), so you had to send them a set of pads as donors.

That was too much hassle for me at the time, so I went with the Mintex. I would have liked to give them a try!
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