BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner
Cancel

New SPEC clutch/flywheel/track report

2805 Views 39 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  Teutonaddict, 
B
I replied to the SPEC poll thread, but figured I would start a new one that had the specific topic heading:

I put in the stage 3 SPEC Hybrid 3 weeks ago. New version. Kevlar/Organic hybrid. I will have around 1,000 miles on it by tomorrow. I am taking the car to VIR Virginia International Raceway to see how this car performs on a 3.3 mile roadcourse...I'll give ya'll a report then if you want it...

So far the clutch feels good. Oh yeah I opted for the lightweight flywheel too. Chatter is obvious outside the car but I think everybody already knows that. As for durability of the clutch, we shall see.

Bought from Ben at Rogue. Nice guy. Total I believe was 1750 or thereabouts.

By the time I get back I should have about 1,500 miles on the clutch/flywheel combo, with 200 miles being hardcore track time if weather permits. I hope the stock brakes hold up (Stock hardware with race pads, complete brake fluid replaced with superblue and powersteering as well, and stainless lines)


POST TRACK WEEKEND.

Clutch and flywheel now have about 1,600 miles on it. They also have 2 days and eight hot sessions around VIR fullcourse. Just got back (225 mile trip) home and everything is fine. Clutch/flywheel worked flawlessly. My issues started out as a VERY BAD brake shutter that took 3 full sessions to go away. I originally thought it was a warped rotor, but ended up most likely being the conversion of street to race pad. Hawk HP10's.

By the second day I had no issues, and simply enjoyed flogging the car to the limits of the brakes, suspension and tires. Some observations:

1. Stock braking is not too bad. I honestly didnt expect the car to stop as well as it did for its weight, and stock pilots. I did get brake fade with the Hawk HP10's after awhile, but they held up pretty good. Overall an "OK" pad. Not great bite, but decent. I have not had the wheels off to check wear on the pad or rotor. Can anyone confirm or deny if the PFC 01's have a pad that fits our stock caliper? Its basically the best pad out there for the track.

2. Dinan Stage3 Koni suspension is not a poser mod. Its a little soft (anyone know the spring rates?) but its very compliant over gators and doesnt let the chasis unsettle in less-than-perfect transitions. Its a very good compromise street to track. I was on firm setting. I had the shop dial in -1.9 front, -2.2 rear camber. 6.0 castor with .20 total toe. My feeling is that I could/should have dialed in more camber up front. Anyone agree/disagree?

3. Pilots are probably not a good choice for track use, but not unusable if you want to go have fun. They will keep you out of trouble, but do go away quicker (push) each session if you run multiple HARD sessions in a day. I felt that 42 pounds hot was a decent pressure with ambient outside temps around 50 degrees.

4. The UUC shifter that is installed in my car has a dead spot left of second gear!?! Is this normal? What I mean is that There seems to be a place right below reverse that you can "attempt" to put the shifter in, left of second. Under quick downshifting manuvers I tried to put the car in second and missed the gate to second and hit this deadend....New to me.

5. The stock LSD is decent for high speed sweepers, but a variable lockup or quaife would be nice for powering out of slow, tight exits. First gear in the M5 (which I really like) really necessitates a quaife type unit. Probably a mod for hard-core track rats, or guys that want everything offered the car. Is there a swap out there from another model/year that can be used?

Im not sure of all the issues of the previous SPEC clutches, but I dont seem to have any. Keep in mind I only have 1,600 miles on mine, but I did baptise it by fire.

My car has 87,000 miles on it. Bought it 3 weeks ago knowing the clutch was fried. The Dinan mods were obviously done by the previous owner. Pretty **** impressive car to flog it like I did and have it perform so well. THEN drive a couple hundred miles home! Whenever I get a little nitpicky about some of the performance aspects I had to tell myself to quit comparing it to my racecar...900 pounds lighter, on Hoosiers, and with a power/weight ratio of about 7. Once I put it in prespective I just shook my head and smiled. Really was amazed at the performance of this sedan. :M5thumbs:

Hope some of this helps....Sorry for the obnoxiously long post!
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
M
Thanks for the report, good info. Is this clutch the 240mm unit? Is this the spec billlet flywheel that has been discussed in previous threads as forthcoming?

As for your comments on camber, there is no adjustment with the dinan plates, what you get is what you get. I agree with you that it's a pretty decent set up for a mostly street, occasional track car.
thanks!
Reply
Save
Like
G
Good report. If you have clutch chatter, can raising the idle speed help like it seems to do for the UUC variant?
As to camber, if you can dial in a little more front, OK, but I would take some OUT of the rears. It will allow the back to rotate a little easier and therefore not work the fronts as much. 42 psi hot in the front is very good IMHO.
Regards,
Jery
Reply
Save
Like
E
Bugeater said:
I had the shop dial in -1.9 front, -2.2 rear camber. 6.0 castor with .20 total toe. My feeling is that I could/should have dialed in more camber up front. Anyone agree/disagree?
Click to expand...
I'm wondering how you were able to get to -1.9 front? I thought, maybe incorrectly, that -1.5 was close to max with the Dinan plates. I remember one post from someone who said he got a little more with Dinan plates,
maybe, -1.7.

Redshift posted that he dials in -2.2 front for track days with his GC adjustable plates. http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=42908&page=1&highlight=definitive

FWIW, Dinan Stage 3 specs are -1.5 front, -2.2 rear camber. 6.5 castor and .20 total toe.
Reply
Save
Like
M
Bugeater, is your SPEC clutch kit model SB633 and the flywheel SB63A?

Thx.
Reply
Save
Like
M
Ok...so I finally got around to installing the new SPEC billet stage 1 clutch kit with the OEM lightened dual mass flywheel...........I drove it for 20 miles and my first impression is "wow".........identical feel to factory with no extra pedal effort and a slightly lower engagement point due to the removed SAC mechanism. Completely quiet setup without any need to increase idle and slightly quicker acceleration due to a 9 pound flywheel weight reduction.....all this just as expected for my daily driver.......unfortunately I have to break in the clutch for a few hundred miles before I start smoking the tires.........:M5launch:
Reply
Save
Like
B
Hey guys, sorry for the late replies. My work blocks this IP for some reason...?

MPRESIV,
I am unsure the part numbers, but you could get them from Ben at Rogue Engineering. The Invoice does not show a part number, simply "Aluminum Flywheel and SPEC Hybris 3". Their number is 201.444.8150 Good luck!

Edp,
The stage 3 suspension came with camber plates that allowed more front negative camber, and I am under the impression that I could dial in a fair amount more...someone correct me if I am wrong! I know Redshift personally, and was lucky to get a ride-along with his better half while he was out flogging his new toy. BTW, I though the ground control setup he had was comparable to the Dinan setup in ride stiffness, compliance, with a little more rebound. He too recommended dropping the rear camber and putting whatever the plates would afford me in the front. I think he is right.

gsfent,
Clutch chatter. I read some other people's posts on raising the limiter to 900, so I experimented and tried to hold rpms around there or higher...around 900-1100. I personally still had some chatter even at 1100. It was reduced but not removed. I dont know how much reduction was evident from outside the car since I was holding the gas pedal down! I agree with you on the rear camber...

Motatti,
Yes and Yes. 240mm and Billet Flywheel. I *can* adjust camber, I believe you cannot adjust castor (in the rear).


** Anybody know anything about my UUC shifter issue? (see original post)
Or other pad choices for stock calipers?


Thanks everyone!
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
T
Great write-up, Bugeater! Glad to read how you've become one with your machine in three weeks' time. I particularly like your synopsis.

Bugeater said:
My car has 87,000 miles on it... Pretty **** impressive car to flog it like I did and have it perform so well. THEN drive a couple hundred miles home! Whenever I get a little nitpicky about some of the performance aspects I had to tell myself to quit comparing it to my racecar...900 pounds lighter, on Hoosiers, and with a power/weight ratio of about 7. Once I put it in prespective I just shook my head and smiled. Really was amazed at the performance of this sedan.
Click to expand...
Mine has 78K miles, but made its first trip to Road Atlanta just after the breakin service with 1500 miles on the clock. In fact, I miss the frequency of track time I was able to manage a few years back.

Bugeater said:
Or other pad choices for stock calipers?
Click to expand...
Your best resource from this forum is Dave Zeckhausen: guru of all things E39 brake-related. I sourced my Axxis Deluxe Plus street pads and PFC01s for my StopTech front BBK. And you're right about the PFC01s: worth every penny!

When I was tracking on my stock brakes, I opened up the factory air channels, did the Motul, stainless lines, and used Mintex C-Tech 1144 pads. At the time, I was using Mintex Red Box for street pads. The C-Techs held up pretty well for high-temp streetable pads, and I never had bedding or deposition problems when switching back and forth from street to track.

At the time I first started tracking the Beast (she'll be five years old on Thursday!), those Mintex 1144's were about the only track pads available for the stock calipers. In that time, a number of alternatives have surfaced.

Hope that helps! And keep that grin up!
-Dave
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
R
First of all, welcome Bugeater (John) to the board. John is a great guy, everyone, he will feel at home here. We had some great fun this weekend at VIR with our "toys", that's for sure. John, I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to get out there and show you how that M5 really scoots, but I think my wifey did a good enough job. I wanted to drive your car and feel the clutch and flywheel setup, but never got a chance.

Get on the phone with Dave Z tomorrow and order your StopTechs so we can play again soon. When are you headed back out? Our next event is April 9-10 w/THSCC at VIR South.
Reply
Save
Like
G
m5board.com seems popular at your work :)

Bugeater said:
Hey guys, sorry for the late replies. My work blocks this IP for some reason...?
Click to expand...
Reply
Save
Like
E
Bugeater said:
The stage 3 suspension came with camber plates that allowed more front negative camber, and I am under the impression that I could dial in a fair amount more...someone correct me if I am wrong! I know Redshift personally, and was lucky to get a ride-along with his better half while he was out flogging his new toy. BTW, I though the ground control setup he had was comparable to the Dinan setup in ride stiffness, compliance, with a little more rebound. He too recommended dropping the rear camber and putting whatever the plates would afford me in the front. I think he is right.
Click to expand...
I'm having a track inspection done next week, and while I'm there I'll ask my guy to look at the Dinan plates and springs and see what he thinks is possible. Threads here have suggested that - 1.5 is close to max given the limited amount of space in the towers with OEM springs. On the other hand, the vast majority of Stage 3s were done by dealers, and they may not have been inclined to deviate from the -1.5 number spec'd by Dinan. My front tire wear looks pretty even, so I'm thinking that adding a little more negative camber, if possible, still would be fine on the street.
Reply
Save
Like
M
Bugeater said:
Motatti,
Yes and Yes. 240mm and Billet Flywheel. I *can* adjust camber, I believe you cannot adjust castor (in the rear).

Thanks everyone!
Click to expand...
Maybe i'm misunderstanding something here, but are you saying you have dinan front camber plates and you CAN adjust front camber?
If so, please tell us how, because that is something dinan isn't telling me. They installed my kit (stage 3) and i have about 1.7 degrees negative.

If you're saying rear camber is adjustable, ok, that's normal. The only front adjustable camber plates for the e39 are kmac and ground control (and i don't know if the GC kit for oe struts is out yet).
Mike
Reply
Save
Like
M
Bugeater said:
gsfent,
Clutch chatter. I read some other people's posts on raising the limiter to 900, so I experimented and tried to hold rpms around there or higher...around 900-1100. I personally still had some chatter even at 1100. It was reduced but not removed. I dont know how much reduction was evident from outside the car since I was holding the gas pedal down!

Thanks everyone!
Click to expand...
Hey Bugeater,

You "TRIED" to hold rpms around there? Please be a little more scientific, before commenting about the affect of a raised idle.

If you don't know how much was reduced Outside, how about telling us how much was reduceded Inside?

Or was your heart still racing from tearing around the Track, and you gave it a couple of quick revs and didn't think much of it?

It sounds like your not concerned with the noise at all?

On your clutch, Whilst I'm sure its fine, 1,600 Miles and lapping at a Track is hardly a Testament to a clutches reliability. I drag raced my stock clutch for 7,000 Km's and it only just started to slip. I had it replaced as I intended on doing a whole heap more runs.

As you usually enter the race track moving from the pits, there is no real test on the clutch, unless you are a poor driver with no mechanical sympathy.

If you really want to know how good your clutch is, Take it to the DRAG STRIP.

Launching is where clutches come apart, not circulating around the track. At the track the clutch is engauged most of the time, and you would be rev matching shifts.

Whilst I am sure you punished the Tires, suspension and brakes, and maybe the motor at the Track, its hardly a test for the clutch.

Regards MJ. :M5launch:
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
G
EdP said:
I'm having a track inspection done next week, and while I'm there I'll ask my guy to look at the Dinan plates and springs and see what he thinks is possible. Threads here have suggested that - 1.5 is close to max given the limited amount of space in the towers with OEM springs. On the other hand, the vast majority of Stage 3s were done by dealers, and they may not have been inclined to deviate from the -1.5 number spec'd by Dinan. My front tire wear looks pretty even, so I'm thinking that adding a little more negative camber, if possible, still would be fine on the street.
Click to expand...
Ed
I think I have 1.5 neg on my fronts. It was done by my independent alignment shop. I have about .75 when the camber plates were not installed correctly. I believe 1.5 is the spec, but I assume it could vary by a .1 or so on any given car. Castor is 6.0. From memory, rears are -2.2, don't remember toe numbers.
The specs I have are:
Front : Camber -1.5 +/- .5 degrees
Castor 6.0 +/- .5 degrees
Total Toe .20 +/- .08 degrees

Rear: Camber -2.5 +/- .5 degrees
Total Toe .50 +/- .15 degrees
Masurements should be done with full tank of fuel and no weight inside the vehicle.
Regards,
Jerry
Reply
Save
Like
R
I find it strange that Dinan specs -2.2 for rear. Even under very severe track use, -1.8 in the rear works absolutely perfectly for me. Tire wear could not be more perfect in the rear. The front should be higher than -2.0 IMO, for track use. Mine is at -2.2 and it could really use another half degree or more for the track. I keep it at -2.2 for the street and it wears just fine.
Reply
Save
Like
M
gsfent said:
Masurements should be done with full tank of fuel and no weight inside the vehicle.
Regards,
Jerry
Click to expand...
Hey Jerry,

Thats interesting. Who told you it should be done with a FULL tank and no occupants?

When you corner balance the suspension (Coilovers) the driver sits in to take his weight into concideration for balance.

Also as you rarely have a Full tank, its only ever full at the start, why would you go on FULL?

Half a tank seems more reasonable, as You'l sometimes have a bit more and sometimes have a bit less?

Just seems interesting they said to you FULL.

Does anyone know why? Are they setting up for Maximum weight? But then you would think that should include a driver.

cherrsagai
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
G
Redshift said:
I find it strange that Dinan specs -2.2 for rear. Even under very severe track use, -1.8 in the rear works absolutely perfectly for me. Tire wear could not be more perfect in the rear. The front should be higher than -2.0 IMO, for track use. Mine is at -2.2 and it could really use another half degree or more for the track. I keep it at -2.2 for the street and it wears just fine.
Click to expand...
Looking at my notes. IIRC I got these from Lscman who was kind enough to supply the info. I just printed them off the board (might be here if you do a search). I did not reconfirm with the Dinan website, but I don't think the info is posted there.
If different settings work well for you and your driving style, that is what I would go with as a fine tuning mechanism.
Regards,
Jerry
Reply
Save
Like
G
MIB said:
Hey Jerry,

Thats interesting. Who told you it should be done with a FULL tank and no occupants?

When you corner balance the suspension (Coilovers) the driver sits in to take his weight into concideration for balance.

Also as you rarely have a Full tank, its only ever full at the start, why would you go on FULL?

Half a tank seems more reasonable, as You'l sometimes have a bit more and sometimes have a bit less?

Just seems interesting they said to you FULL.

Does anyone know why? Are they setting up for Maximum weight? But then you would think that should include a driver.

cherrsagai
Click to expand...
Mark
I thought the same thing, but my notes (see preceding post) say "full tank" and "no one in the car". I would have thought half tank and weight to simulate the driver, since this is closer to what you would have at the track. Maybe a call to Mountainview is in order! :cheers:
Regards,
Jerry
Reply
Save
Like
E
MIB said:
Who told you it should be done with a FULL tank and no occupants?
Click to expand...
I think Jerry is reading the same Dinan spec sheet as me, which says exactly that. I've also wondered why it's different. I also think the clutch is getting a decent workout at the track, especially if you have DSC off and are hammering the gas at each apex.
Reply
Save
Like
M
So check this out for a proceedure.

If all of this is correct, and I don't know either way, but this is what would be requiried.

1. You run the tank down to Half.

2. Install your Coilovers.

3. Sit in drivers seat while they corner balance the car.

4. Fill up with Fuel

5. Get out of the car whilst they Do an alignment.

hiha Does that about cover it? :1:
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
M5Board is the best forum community for information on the BMW M5 E60 (V-10), E39 (V-8), E34 (straight 6), E28, F90 and F10. Discuss performance, specs, reviews and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion E60 M5 and E61 M5 Touring Discussion Parts / Other For Sale or Wanted E63/E64 M6 Discussion E34 M5 Discussion
Top