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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Good morning ///M lovers,

I have an 06 ///M5 that was an 09/05 build. The car has been an absolute joy in every way imaginable. However the other day i was leaving the grocery store and went from reverse to first gear in the parking lot and the clutch did not engage... it said "1" on dash but the engine would just rev. So i restart and everything is good, no warning lamps. Well then of course a few days go by and I roll up to a four way stop and as I come to a complete stop, BOOM! I am greeted with the RED COG!!!. TRANSMISSION MALFUNCTION!! Same situation... car would just rev up with no engaging but this time the fault lamp is screaming at me. Sooo after I received about 15 friendly horns from the cars behind me, I get out and have the pleasure of pushing the beast all by myself through the intersection... anyone who has been there knows exactly how great this feeling is! The onlookers could not believe their eyes. :confused3

So I do the protocol and go see my friends at AZ Bimmer Werks and have my codes pulled: PLDC Faults 510D, 510E, AFA0.
"faulty clutch throw-out bearing"

I receive quote of $776 out the door to replace faulty throw-out bearing. Then i get a quote for $1623 to have the complete clutch done.

My question to the board, seeing as my car has 80,200 miles on it, should i just do the clutch while they're in there? Or do I save and just do the throw-out bearing? I do plan on owning this car for at least another two years, average around 8,000 miles a year. :dunno:

How is the price for my quotes? fair? too pricey? great? I know a lot of you have done this fix on your own so I am curious what you paid for the clutch kit and how many hours this process would take? (they said 8 hours).:deal:

Any other wisdom you could instill for this instance would be very much appreciated!

*** yes, i did do a search and learned tons of information in regards to this special issue with the beast, but everyone's story is a little different! Thank you guys!***
 

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The throwout bearing will not solve your problem.

The three codes are:

-4FA0: Clutch Position Deviation (I do not believe AFA0 is a valid error code). This indicates PLCD is sending a signal to the SMG that the slave cylinder (and therefore clutch position) is not where the SMG module thinks it should be. While this can be an indication of a bad throwout bearing/guide bushing due to galling, it is not an absolute and in your case most likely isn't the problem at all, here's why:

-510D and 510E are errors in the PLCD signal from the primary (510D) and backup (redundant) (510E) hall effect sensors in the TE Connectivity supplied PLCD sensor BMW uses. These indicate a failure of the signal path itself and not the value of the signal being received.

Auto part Machine Cylinder Steering part

The first step (if it were my car) would be to disconnect, inspect, clean, and reassemble the connector on the right side of the transmission. This connector is piece 10 on this drawing:

Engine Auto part Automotive engine part Automotive super charger part Transmission part

If no signs of corrosion and/or oxidization is present, replacing the PLCD is the next option. This is completey possible to be done without dropping the transmission and has been done by a couple of forum members here (tbrown1985 for one), but many dealers and indys will probably tell you the transmission has to be dropped to change it out.

The labor quoted to you for the throwout bearing is very reasonable considering they are dropping the transmission to do it. However, I truly do not believe it will solve your problem. Bad throwout bearings generate 4FA0s alone, I've been living with mine for almost a year now (have two clutches in the garage, just not bad enough yet to warrant replacement).

Now, at your mileage, the clutch may very well need replacement, but it's your call. I would ask them to change the PLCD first and if that resolves the 510D and 510E errors, you may find the 4FA0 is gone as well (the SMG module recognizes that an AFU signal from the PLCD is not what is expected, thus generates the 4FA0 "clutch position deviation" error).

Best of luck, let us know how it turns out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
jcolley, wow, thank you so much for this helpful insight. I had read a different thread involving the #10 connector but did not know it was related to my issues. I will definitely make an attempt to take your advice and do that process. Is the link provided the best spot to order a PLDC or should I have my INDY order? I have some skills and a friend has a lift so maybe this could be a DIY fix... hopefully! I got that hard slam feeling from the rear end yesterday and it scared the daylights out of me! the car limped home and needless to say I did not drive the car to work today!
 

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I've had that same kick before and after having the adaptation performed, it is 100% different.

I would definitely DIY the PLCD, you can probably get the best deal from Bimmerzone or somewhere similar. Maybe Tbrown1985 will chime in with his experience.
 

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I had the exact same errors as you MattyC999. Jcolley's advice is spot on, check the PLCD first! User tbrown1985 is also an expert here.

I replaced mine myself after reading posts from tbrown, jcolly and several other members and it solved all my problems. If you search for PLCD you will find all the information that you need. I used TIS for general guidance but honestly once you're under there it's pretty self explanatory. The sensor cost $350 and it will take you at least 4 hrs (took me 7 because I had to mess around with jack stands and hunting for tools). I had a great time doing the work and I learned a lot about my beast. Plus it felt awesome to diagnose and repair something without even thinking about going to the dealer! (Thanks M5BOARD!)

Here are some good links:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/296289-inpa-clutch-adaptation-issues.html

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/261457-red-cog-help.html

Direct BMW and Mercedes Parts and Accessories
PLCD Part# 23017837428


I plan to make a DIY with pictures for the PLCD replacement when I have time, but here at the steps off the top of my head:

1. Get car up on stands, all four tires off the ground. As high as possible because you will be going in and out from underneath it MANY times and your back WILL be killing you the next day. (I'm 26 and fit and I was crazy sore.)
2. Remove exhaust. Start with the 2 clamps up front, then the rear bolts by the mufflers, then drop the center mount.
3. Remove all plastic guards and heat shielding. Tedious but easy.
4. Unbolt drive shaft from trans, un-bolt middle drive shaft brace and lower it out of the way. No need to completely remove it.
5. Place a jack under the trans and very slightly support it
6. Remove rear trans support (6 bolts I think) and tilt the trans down, it wont go really far but enough to get your hand in to the sensor on the driver side.
7. Get a looong socket extension and the correct allen wrench and carefully remove the PLCD bolts
8. Replace the sensor, make sure there is no tensile stress of the cable by using zip tires to secure it.
9. Bolt everything back up and fire up the beast!!
10. Some have done a clutch adaptation, but many have created further problems after starting that process. I would suggest starting the car and driving it around a bit before doing the adaptation. My errors cleared after firing her.

Good Luck! You'll be back on the road in no time and you'll love your beast more than ever before!
 

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The throwout bearing will not solve your problem.

The three codes are:

-4FA0: Clutch Position Deviation (I do not believe AFA0 is a valid error code). This indicates PLCD is sending a signal to the SMG that the slave cylinder (and therefore clutch position) is not where the SMG module thinks it should be. While this can be an indication of a bad throwout bearing/guide bushing due to galling, it is not an absolute and in your case most likely isn't the problem at all, here's why:

-510D and 510E are errors in the PLCD signal from the primary (510D) and backup (redundant) (510E) hall effect sensors in the TE Connectivity supplied PLCD sensor BMW uses. These indicate a failure of the signal path itself and not the value of the signal being received.

View attachment 308849

The first step (if it were my car) would be to disconnect, inspect, clean, and reassemble the connector on the right side of the transmission. This connector is piece 10 on this drawing:

View attachment 308841

If no signs of corrosion and/or oxidization is present, replacing the PLCD is the next option. This is completey possible to be done without dropping the transmission and has been done by a couple of forum members here (tbrown1985 for one), but many dealers and indys will probably tell you the transmission has to be dropped to change it out.

The labor quoted to you for the throwout bearing is very reasonable considering they are dropping the transmission to do it. However, I truly do not believe it will solve your problem. Bad throwout bearings generate 4FA0s alone, I've been living with mine for almost a year now (have two clutches in the garage, just not bad enough yet to warrant replacement).

Now, at your mileage, the clutch may very well need replacement, but it's your call. I would ask them to change the PLCD first and if that resolves the 510D and 510E errors, you may find the 4FA0 is gone as well (the SMG module recognizes that an AFU signal from the PLCD is not what is expected, thus generates the 4FA0 "clutch position deviation" error).

Best of luck, let us know how it turns out.
Good advice here.
 

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I've had that same kick before and after having the adaptation performed, it is 100% different.

I would definitely DIY the PLCD, you can probably get the best deal from Bimmerzone or somewhere similar. Maybe Tbrown1985 will chime in with his experience.
I bought mine from Husker BMW online. $334, no tax, free shipping - It did take about 10 days to get it because they didn't have it in stock. I believe a lot of clutch parts and hydraulic parts get replaced on these cars when it isn't really necessary. A new PLCD solved my problem for very little effort/$$, and I got the satisfaction of DIY and not paying the dealer or Indy. I kid you not, the dealer was suggesting, whole SMG unit, clutch and flywheel - Almost $7k! If your car shifts and drives normally when the faults aren't present, I think a bad PLCD may be your issue. Probably good practice to replace the PLCD anyway when you do a clutch, so it is definitely worth a try. Definitely report back with the outcome - I think all the info on the Board is helping us narrow down what is really happening here. I no longer worry about SMG problems (I've got over 118k on original clutch so it probably isn't going to be long before I need one, but this is to be expected). I now spend my time listening for engine noises and worrying about Rod Bearing or Vanos Pump failure. Good luck.
 

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jcolley, wow, thank you so much for this helpful insight. I had read a different thread involving the #10 connector but did not know it was related to my issues. I will definitely make an attempt to take your advice and do that process. Is the link provided the best spot to order a PLDC or should I have my INDY order? I have some skills and a friend has a lift so maybe this could be a DIY fix... hopefully! I got that hard slam feeling from the rear end yesterday and it scared the daylights out of me! the car limped home and needless to say I did not drive the car to work today!
Test it out when you get home. My bet is it will drive fine. If it does, then you are experiencing the same symptoms I had. Always drove fine after sitting overnight, they once everything was up to full temp (about 15-20 minutes) it would fault.
 

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I figured I'd share my details for other guys who are experiencing these errors.

tbrown1985 and I had almost the exact same issues except his errors would clear overnight and mine would not. I got the errors when I started my car to leave work, drove it home and hooked up the computer, cleared the codes and all was fine. Drove the car for ~20 mins and the errors came back. After they came back I could no longer clear them, they would immediately return. So, It seems like there are a few different modes of failure for the PLCD.
 

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I had a similar problem as well and BMW simply replaced my entire tranny under CPO LOL! Needless to i didn't argue with that but the bill was 15k!
 

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Quick tip to ensure your throw-out bearing lasts longer:

Put the car in N when stopped at red lights. Otherwise it's just spinning and spinning and causing premature wear if left in gear.

Think of it like a manual car. You wouldn't keep the clutch in at a light.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
fuddy, jcolley, jimmy012308, biltrite88, tbrown1985, 5soko, mighty5, mtv10: Thank you all so much for your contributions to this thread.

This morning I took the beast to work(10 miles) oil temp got to 210, about 4 miles on surface streets and 6 miles on the freeway. Of course, it perfromed absolutely flawlessly, almost felt too smooth lol. But no faults were present and the clutch felt amazing. So this is making me feel more and more comfortable that this PLDC could be the issue. This weekend I am going to attempt to look at the #10 connector and I am in talks with getting the PLDC ordered and installed. Hopefully my friend can help me DIY, do you guys know of any special tools or things I will need if performing the PLDC on my own? Also is there any adaption or computers needed if I do the PLDC on my own?

I have altered my driving and style and am putting the car in neutral whenever possible.... thanks for the tip! I had always just let it sit in "1" at red lites and even when parked. I now understand what that can do to the throw-out bearing. appreciate the advice!

But nonetheless this PLDC fault is an urgent issue and I need to get this resolved immediately! Thanks so much for your contributions, what a great benefit and tool this community is! :byee55amg
 

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Quick tip to ensure your throw-out bearing lasts longer:

Put the car in N when stopped at red lights. Otherwise it's just spinning and spinning and causing premature wear if left in gear.

Think of it like a manual car. You wouldn't keep the clutch in at a light.
Your post got me wondering if this was true. It makes perfect sense, therefore would be 100% contrary to BMW norms, so while I was hooked up to nickl360's car last night, we checked it out.

While monitoring the "Analog 3" screen in INPA with the transmission in 'N', the clutch would disengage (129 increments) every time the brake was pressed, probably in preparation for an expected upcoming shift. When the brake was released, the clutch would go back to the "engaged" position (around 640 or so increments). :sad3:

So, this is true, but only if your foot is off the brake pedal. Leave it to BMW to design the mitigations right out... :grrrrr:
 

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Your post got me wondering if this was true. It makes perfect sense, therefore would be 100% contrary to BMW norms, so while I was hooked up to nickl360's car last night, we checked it out.

While monitoring the "Analog 3" screen in INPA with the transmission in 'N', the clutch would disengage (129 increments) every time the brake was pressed, probably in preparation for an expected upcoming shift. When the brake was released, the clutch would go back to the "engaged" position (around 640 or so increments). :sad3:

So, this is true, but only if your foot is off the brake pedal. Leave it to BMW to design the mitigations right out... :grrrrr:
Agreed. Also, IMHO, the wear is more likely caused from fore/aft movement, as opposed to spinning - so, it would seem that "N" with no foot on the brake then back to 1st would actually add 2 additional strokes as opposed to just leaving in gear when you come to a stop, and would increase galling (you were already on the brake anyway). Thoughts??
 

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I always use neutral when im stopped but my foot doesn't leave the brake pedal. So is that wrong/more wear, than leaving it in gear? When anticipating a complete stop i shift to neutral instead of letting the smg down shift to save wear on the tranny/clutch. Id rather wear brakes than my tranny and clutch.
 
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