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I took my M5 to my local dealer and voilà! Brake pedal has been good to go for two years. Probably still good but I haven't driven it since last summer. My dealer did not just have a power bleeder like I have. At least it looked more involved.

Original master cylinder, calipers and booster aa far as I know. Brake lines and ABS hydraulic unit look original. DSC module is a take off from Clemster.

I can't say if my brake pedal was ever like yours and I don't know if it now feels like a new M5 pedal did. Mine is a 2001 with 125 or 129k miles; I don't remember. I need to drive my M5 more often.
 

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Unfortunately I have read this thread...

No... You haven't...


If you HAD read this entire thread, you would see that I have done what you posted.

1) I tested the M/C by plugging the outlet ports and the pedal was as solid as a rock, EVEN WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING. Ergo... THE M/C IS not THE PROBLEM!
2) I checked the system with the key OUT of the ignition, using an A/C evacuation pump supplying vacuum to the booster and the pedal went to the floor. Ergo; there is NO electrical problem.
3) I checked the pressures with an Innova© Ip78 brake caliper test set and the readings at the calipers was 5000+psi on the fronts and around 3000psi (I forget) on the rears. READ THE POSTS I MADE AT THE TIME! There were some weird effects going on that I have not pursued. I still have the Excel spreadsheet and may yet perform a detailed test.

I was mainly interested in confirming that the calipers were functioning. I have replaced the seals and boots with OEM ATE©


The way you are going about this might be the best that you can do, but it is not even close to what a real pro can do.
Speak for yourself. You don't know my level of experience!

I have the same software that BMW has. This is a 20 year old automobile and new diagnostic tools have not been introduced for years.

DIS 57 tests the wheel sensors. Mine operate as they should.

DIS57 tests the operation of the solenoids. I have run this test and the solenoids are controlling the correct wheels.

DIS57 operates the solenoids and the pump during the second stage of the bleeding process. The bleeding procedure is detailed in the Bentley manual (BMW sanctioned.) This is a "step-by-step" for both the ABS/T and the ABS/DSC.



...
You need to have someone with the correct equipment to test the pressure, out of the Master then out of the ABS,etc. It is time consuming and it will cost you, the lines have to be removed then the gauges go in then bleed. So time = money, read not cheap...
And this is the problem in dealing with a pro. They do not have the time to do an exhaustive series of tests the way we amateurs can. They are in business to make money and most customers won't accept a $5000.00 bill to fix a brake problem on a 20-year-old car!

They would NOT perform the tests you suggest. They don't have time! They would throw parts at the problem until the problem went away and then charge the consumer for all of the GOOD parts they replaced (plus labor) and confidently profess these were replaced as part of the PM procedure. I've been there!!

Here's what they say. "All of the parts in this system are 20 years old and so out of respect for you, my customer, I have replaced the entire system so that you won't have any problems with this system for as long as you own the car."

I had a pro try to sell my wife a new timing belt tensioner that I had replaced the month before when I replaced the belt. He claimed the tensioner was rattling. It was the a/c CLUTCH! This was easily diagnosed by ME, with him standing there... by turning on the A/C. Clutch engaged- no noise. Clutch idling- noise. She had taken the car in for an alignment!!


He claimed he was just trying to look out for my wife because he didn't want her to be left stranded BULL$HIT! He wanted to take advantage of a "stupid" female and saw a way to pick up a quick buck. I could go on...
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Did you try to repair the solenoids on the ABS units? Or possibly get one from Clemster ( Adam )

Don't stress about Sailor24, his advice is out of order and kind of rude if I may. Keep working on the solution which will benefit all of us and I also agree on those professional mechanics, they just want to rip you off, the board is full of horror stories 2ith these so-called experts.

CSBM5 has always provided great advice, listen to him.

Now, were getting somewhere. I replaced the motor wire insulation on a second used unit I purchased some time ago. While I was doing this, I noticed there are plugs on the bottom of the unit that are held in place with wire circlips. I have a non-functioning unit in the car that I plan to remove the circlips from so I can see what's inside. If there is some corrosion or trash interfering with the operation of one or more outlet valves, I hope to be able to see it.


Not all mechanics are bad. Some are, and these give the entire profession a bad name. I sympathize with the pros' dilemma however. They simply CAN'T spend the time it takes in order to solve a mystery like this. The customer won't pay more than the car is worth.


That's my advantage. Time spent is of secondary importance. As long as I EVENTUALLY solve the problem, I consider it to be tuition to mechanic's school.
 

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...This is my first BMW and will be my last. I can't believe BMW would design such a system that would require expensive equipment and labor to diagnose, much less repair!!!! Why there isn't a bleed screw on the ABS simplify all of this.
No, There's something WRONG and we haven't found it yet!


"We shall go on to the end... we shall never surrender..." Winston Churchill, June 4, 1940

I don't think I have come across anyone who had this issue and had a fix that worked. If anyone has been there and did the fix, please advise!!!!!
I read about a guy who had the EXACT problem we are having and finally fixed his Ford by replacing the ABS unit. He had been through much of what we are going through but the used ABS he subbed fixed his problem. I have one more used unit to try (this Sunday.)

I, like you, am reluctant to drop the $1500.00 it takes to replace the unit new. I have been unable to find a used 34.51 1-090-911 that is the current replacement for mine. The only model I have seen is 34.51 1-090-910. I found a 01/1998 528i at the junk yard yesterday but someone had already pulled the ABS module.


The 34.51 1-090-910 in my 1997 works fine.

This might be, because for most owners, the failure of these units renders a 20 year old car totaled.
 

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I took my M5 to my local dealer and voilà! Brake pedal has been good to go for two years. Probably still good but I haven't driven it since last summer. My dealer did not just have a power bleeder like I have. At least it looked more involved.

Original master cylinder, calipers and booster aa far as I know. Brake lines and ABS hydraulic unit look original. DSC module is a take off from Clemster.

I can't say if my brake pedal was ever like yours and I don't know if it now feels like a new M5 pedal did. Mine is a 2001 with 125 or 129k miles; I don't remember. I need to drive my M5 more often.

It sounds like your may have had air in the system. This problem manifests as such but...


What is Clemster?
 

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I, like you, am reluctant to drop the $1500.00 it takes to replace the unit new. I have been unable to find a used 34.51 1-090-911 that is the current replacement for mine.
It's worse than $1500 :eek:oohhh:; MSRP is now up to $2334.80, and is available from Morristown for $1751.10.

What is Clemster?
This thread is up to hundreds of pages now, but Clemster (Adam) has tons of used M5 parts and is continually breaking down cars.
 

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It sounds like your may have had air in the system. This problem manifests as such but...


What is Clemster?
When I, an owner, am not successful but the dealer, a mechanic, is then my problem was simply "air in the system"? You have tried to remedy this problem and have not been successful but your problem can't be air anywhere in the system because . . . ?

I am perfectly capable of bleeding brakes. Been doing it for decades with my father and brothers for myself and friends with success. The work of a deceitful mechanic made my M5 better in this case. I'm sorry you don't have a person you trust that can work on your vehicles or perform simple tasks that you ask them to do.
 

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When I, an owner, am not successful but the dealer, a mechanic, is then my problem was simply "air in the system"? You have tried to remedy this problem and have not been successful but your problem can't be air anywhere in the system because . . . ?
Because I've bleed it using BMW software and using the procedure outlined in the Bentley manual after each component replacement.



I am perfectly capable of bleeding brakes. Been doing it for decades with my father and brothers for myself and friends with success. The work of a deceitful mechanic made my M5 better in this case. I'm sorry you don't have a person you trust that can work on your vehicles or perform simple tasks that you ask them to do.
Wow! A little touchy there aren't we?


Like you, I have been bleeding brakes for decades with success. You don't have to feel sorry for me friend. I'm a big boy.
 

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...
I don't think I have come across anyone who had this issue and had a fix that worked. If anyone has been there and did the fix, please advise!!!!!Thanks
I'll let the list know after I swap out the 1st used unit I subbed in. This guy had better luck. I'm paying $65.00 at my local salvage yard and they have a 30 day return credit.

https://www4.bing.com/videos/search?q=clean+abs+module+with+brake+cleaner&qpvt=clean+abs+module+with+brake+cleaner&view=detail&mid=627A64B0AAFC7739FB67627A64B0AAFC7739FB67&rvsmid=D970288FADE5379BC9A9D970288FADE5379BC9A9&FORM=VDRVRV
 

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Discussion Starter #210 (Edited)
I had to step away from my M5 and this brake pedal issue... there were some other projects around the house that needed tending to.


I thought to take some steps to try and isolate different parts of the system as mentioned in a reply from Arktiksilber shown above.


I capped the two lines from the master cylinder that go to the ABS/DSC hydraulic unit. I left the hard line from the pre-charge pump to the MC in place. With the engine running I press on the brake pedal and it hardly went down. MC checks out fine, no leaks. The vacuum boost does what it is suppose to do by helping push the MC piston. Vacuum boost is fine. I talked to BBA Remanufacturing Inc. about my ABS unit that I had sent to them for test/repair (lifetime warranty). They are very confident that it is working properly, but I could send it back for a check over. I never had any of the dash warning lights come on so I think it is fine.


Still to do, and this might narrow things, is to just reattach the MC front wheel port hard line and pedal test. See if that allows the pedal to sink or not. I will run ISTA+ software and work the solenoids and see if there is a difference. Last would be to reattach the MC rear wheel port hard line and repeat.


It may be a day or two before I get to do the last couple of tests...
 

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Discussion Starter #211
Today, Aug 14, 2019, I did a last stab at purging any air from the brake system. Earlier I thought I made some progress and flushed out the cheap Valvoline DOT 3/4 fluid and put fresh Motul RBF 600 fluid. I did not want to flush that into a catch can only to throw away. Instead, I pre-filled a length of plastic line that fits tight on the bleed nipple. One end was ran into the MC reservoir and secured in place. The other end, mostly filled with new RBF 600 fluid got fitted on to the bleed nipple (with wrench on Front Right nipple). I felt that the rear brakes were fully bled by now. I opened the nipple and being in a position to see the clear plastic hose going into the reservoir, I pumped the brake pedal many times. I could see the air bubble that was in the line and with more pumping additional bubbles went by. I then ran INPA software where I could activate the solenoids and pumps. I also pumped the brake pedal many times. Then I did the same to the left front caliper. Then I started over using ISTA+ software, pumping and running the available pumps. After removing the plastic hose and topping up the reservoir fluid, I took the Beast out for short neighborhood test drive. Definitely the brakes felt better and I could feel the ABS kicking in!!!! I will do a stronger/harder test drive tomorrow weather permitting. I did this bleed screw pump back to the MC before, but this time there seems to be better results.

I will report back and hopefully this is the end of this issue!!!!!!
Hopefully some of this may help others with this soft brake issue.

The 'NEW Forum' look and feel SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Change it BACK Now
 

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Discussion Starter #212
Went for a longer, faster test drive this am. The pedal feels stronger and the car does stop faster/better. I seem to feel the ABS working (I think). That said, at a full stop, engine running, with strong foot pressure on the brake pedal, over about ten seconds, the pedal will still go down quite a bit. Do other M5's do that?

For now, I will just put everything back together and just the car. I this still bothers me, I will try more fluid flushing.

I would like to Thank All the People who followed this thread and put forth suggestions/fixes/experience!!!!!
 

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Went for a longer, faster test drive this am. The pedal feels stronger and the car does stop faster/better. I seem to feel the ABS working (I think). That said, at a full stop, engine running, with strong foot pressure on the brake pedal, over about ten seconds, the pedal will still go down quite a bit. Do other M5's do that?

For now, I will just put everything back together and just the car. I this still bothers me, I will try more fluid flushing.

I would like to Thank All the People who followed this thread and put forth suggestions/fixes/experience!!!!!
I subbed in a third ABS valve with no improvement. The chance that I have now tried, effectively 4 units (counting the BBA repaired unit as one) I am going to rule out this component as a cause.

Ditto the brake pads that I replaced with BMW OEM pads.

Since both of our cars are able to stop with enough conviction to actuate the ABS system, we are left with long brake pedal travel as our ONLY symptom. Neither of us has any fluid leakage; external or... internal. We have both tested for this by sealing off the master cylinder outlets.

What can cause this? Answer? One or more of the brake pistons is being required to move too far.

There should be very little space between the pads and rotors when the brake is released. If for some reason, one or more pads are physically pushed too far back when the brake is released, subsequent application of the brake, requires that the hydraulic system take up the slack before the pad(s) contacts the rotor(s.)

I am going to observe each brake as a helper presses on the pedal with the engine running and see if I can notice any flexing of the caliper or wheel bearing. I have already rebuilt the cylinders with ATE seals and boots and have lubed the slides so there is no binding there.

There was one badly damaged wheel and tire when I bought this car, so SOME wheel took a terrific shot at some point. The bad wheel was on the right rear but I suspect it was mounted on the front when the damage occurred.

As I may have stated in a previous post, this condition (long brake pedal travel) existed before I bought the car.
 

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Doesn't BBA Reman fix the electrical side? The part where the hydraulic lines are connected remain in the car. Have you tried four ABS control units or hydraulic units? A combination? Am I misunderstanding the relationship or interface between the two?
 

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Doesn't BBA Reman fix the electrical side? The part where the hydraulic lines are connected remain in the car. Have you tried four ABS control units or hydraulic units? A combination? Am I misunderstanding the relationship or interface between the two?
Note that, in my unit, the hydraulic unit and the electrical portion are not separable. They are attached via a ribbon cable soldered to the leads on the underside of the circuit board. There is no "repair unit" (read, "separate electrical portion") as in later models. 34.51 1-090-910

https://www.autotav.com/ABS-ASC-T-Hydraulic-unit-BMW-34-51-1-090-910-Bosch-0-265-217-000-34511090910


This unit has been subbed to the same number with the last three digits "911.” “910" is NLA. These 910 units are readily available in my local breaking yards. This could be because they are highly reliable and don't break down or because they are prone to failure and worthless.

I never received any printout of test results from BBA.

The unit was NOT opened by BBA as that requires sawing open the case and that wasn't done. The circuit board faces the outside so, even being unable to open the unit due to application of the anti-tamper seal, signs of opening would be obvious. I tested the resistances of the solenoids of the two other units I bought and they seemed to be reasonable. I.E. the resistances, though two different values, were symmetric and there was no solenoid that deviated excessively.

I have tried 4 "hydraulic/electric" units. The original, the unit repaired by BBA and two others, with the 910 part number.

I have tried 1 used control unit that is under the dash. All that accomplished was that DIS complained the unit was from a 740i. Also, the ASC/T light is illuminated and will not cancel when the dash button is depressed.

Thanks for your question. This topic is kind of a "brainstorming" session and all input is welcome.
 

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Ah yeah, that sounds quite different than my M5. That being said, I don't know what part number I removed nor what is in there now incidentally.

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Ah yeah, that sounds quite different than my M5. That being said, I don't know what part number I removed nor what is in there now incidentally.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
Yes the lesser E39s have different units. There is no comparison, they don't even work the same. The unit in the high end 5 and 7 series are based on what was learned in Formula 1 when ABS and traction control were allowed.
Our units can smoothly bypass pressure without the need to make the pedal vibrate.
Could you imagine the conversation between the pit boss and the highly skilled driver that can modulate brake pressure so perfectly, if the ABS unit kicked at his foot every pulse.
 
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Sailor24
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