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Discussion Starter #21
@xrviz, if I remember correctly, I believe that its Secret Menu Item No. 4 that you do in 3rd gear,but if I remember correctly, isn't there a table that you have to look up to correct the values the test gives you based on temp or barometer or something to that effect? That is the part I need to look up. I might be able to do the test this evening to see where it is at when it throws the CEL. I'm still planning to do @Sailor24 MAF unplug test tomorrow morning while it is cool.
 

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The fuel pump goes like scheduled at your mileage. You’ll have to replace it soon one way or another. I can’t remember how much I paid, but the replacement was under $100. I think I got it from RockAuto. It’s easy enough to replace and the difference is instant.
I can tell you that once I replaced the fuel filter, the fuel pump went very shortly after. Related? Maybe, maybe not...
 

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Discussion Starter #23
@Sailor24, I have completed the MAF unplug test and here what I have.

Unplugged the MAFs and drove +50 miles before I got to my testing spot. Drove the car in 3rd gear at +5500 to 6000 rpms for a sustained period. It seemed to take a little longer the CEL to activate, but it eventually did. Pulled over, scanned & cleared the codes, restarted the car and she drove fine. I went to the next exit and plugged back in the MAFs. Here are the codes I got:

29 (41) Signal, air-mass flow sensor, right
39 (57) Signal, air-mass flow sensor, left
4D (77) Signal, intake-air temperature sensor
C4 (196) Misfiring, cylinder 1 with cylinder cutout.
C5 (197) Misfiring, cylinder 2 with cylinder cutout.
C9 (201) Misfiring, cylinder 6 with cylinder cutout.
CC (204) Misfiring, several cylinders with cylinder cutout.

You had already mentioned that I would get the first three; however, a new code also popped up; C5 (197) Misfiring, cylinder 2 with cylinder cutout.

When I unplugged the MAFs this morning, I was expecting a little more of a change in idle and while driving (i guess I was expecting it to feel a little rougher); however, I really didn't feel a change between running with and without MAFs. Just thought I would share that in case it is relevant.

@xrviz, after plugging back in the MAF's, I watched the L/H on secret menu #4. In 3rd gear, the highest value I was able to get was +/-105 L/H at redline. I was able to do the test twice where I was at, and that is the most I saw. The second time I did the test, I reached the high 80's L/H. The instrument cluster showed around 80 deg. f.

When I make the value corrections as shown within this thread (How to test the MAFs yourself and How MAFs work) and the spreadsheet within it, I get 105 equals 132.6.

940581


Thank you,
 

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Can you read your fuel trims with your device? How old are the O2 sensors on that car?
If your MAFs are good then you feel little change when unplugging the MAFs but if your O2 Sensors are screwed or reading wrong you also will not feel a change. Something seems a little off with your MAF test and the results. With that 6200 altitude we might be getting some differences just from a change in temp, but still 105 one run and only 80 the next might be the difference in the car readapting once you plugged them back in. Run the MAF test again in a week leaving the MAFs plugged in then unplug them again and drive for the week, do one run without them plugged in then and see what you get plug them in do it again. Then drive for a bit 25 miles will likely do but 50 would be better and do the test again.
By rights there might be some a bit of a difference between unplugged mafs and plugged mafs but really if your MAFs are fine then all should be pretty close.
My suspicion is you have a couple things off and it is the combo that is at issue.
Unfortunately there have been so many things found to have caused this issue at some point you might just be forced to do the dreadful replace and hope deal. That said if you plan on keeping the car long term, the things you replace are just good maintenance.
Do you have the tools to do a fuel pressure check?
All that and really your results are suggesting more that you have a bad injector or maybe some cylinder leakage. Because of the vanos and the way the misfire detection works or does not work depending on how you look at it. 1 and 6 can be the same misfire. They are opposite cylinders. So if the misfire is real and on cylinder number one then there can be some gas still in that cylinder. The vanos is basically trapping exhaust gas for emissions so the exhaust gas from that misfire on cylinder one, will have some fuel in that still. When the engine is in position to fire 6 the valves on one will be working to fill cylinder 1. In simple short and maybe not really accurate terms the vanos closes the exhaust valve early and then holds opening the intake valve opens so that the compressed exhaust gas releases that energy back into engine rotation. This action effects the rotation of the engine and will be interpreted as a minor misfire on the opposite cylinder.
So I don't have ten hours to explain it correctly but that is the basics, and why we often see 1 real misfire causing several codes. The addition of 2 to your code lists suggest maybe the misfire is really on 6 and 1 is a ghost.
Anyway here is the firing order:1 - 5 - 4 - 8 - 6 - 3 - 7 - 2
I would throw a bottle of injector cleaner in that definitely has P.E.A. in it. Then I would do a fuel pressure check just to be sure but my suspicion is your injectors because of the consistent misfire codes. If it was the delivery system, filter or pump I would think the codes would be more random.
All that said there is an old thread here about misfires on 5, and one day it just stopped doing it, also the drivers in the DME that fire the coils have failed in the past, it is all a guessing game sorry.
It could also be a lean misfire and sort of the same applies but I am not going to explain it other than to say the exhaust gas on a lean misfire has different properties so behaves differently, but if it is lean either you have a bad injector oring or the injectors probably will leak after cleaning so replacement is the only way to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
@Sailor24,

I'll need to do some research as to whether my unit can perform fuel trim readings, I'll try to verify it. It is my understanding the pre-cat O2 sensors were changed by the previous owner maybe 20k miles ago, but I would need to verify it.

Is your following statement referring to the Secret Menu #4 test reading the L/H's?

"Run the MAF test again in a week leaving the MAFs plugged in then unplug them again and drive for the week, do one run without them plugged in then and see what you get plug them in do it again. Then drive for a bit 25 miles will likely do but 50 would be better and do the test again."

I do have plans to keep the car for as long as I can push a clutch in. Having said that this coming holiday weekend, I'll be at a place where I will be able to do an oil change. I've just ordered a fuel pump and filter to replace at the same time. As I don't have a definitive history on what has been replaced in the past, I can only assume that the fuel pump is original and it might be good to change it. The fuel filter was supposedly replaced by the former owner at about the same time the O2's were replaced, but I have decided to replace it again after the fuel pump.

I do not personally have the means to do a fuel pressure check myself, I may have to outsource that.

As I recently put two cans of the BG 44K Platinum fuel system cleaner (maybe within 600 to 900 miles of one another), is it wise to add another cleaner so soon since as you pointed out my oversight, these should only be added every 3k to 5k miles?

As I have been going through this process, I have been looking up various parts and their options as I might be needing to change any specific item based on the outcome of these various test. Related to fuel injectors, I've been seeing both the OE units and re-manufactured units from both ECS Tuning and FCP Euro. Do you know anything about GB Remanufacturing? Doing a search on the board, there doesn't seem to be that much information about them and I'm wondering if its a "to-good-to-be-true" scenario.

Image taken from ECS Tunings website based on the fuel injector part number search (Search SiteSearch 13641407938 - Page 1 - ECS Tuning):
940602


Thank you,
 

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The big problem is we don't have enough accurate information. A live reading of the fuel trims would go a long way, then we would know if the car is running lean or rich with the misfires. Best guess is it it lean. No cleaner will fix broken, so if the injector is damaged and the spring is failed cleaning will not help. I have no idea if your PEA in it and I know PEA works when others don't.
If you ran one tank with PEA then got a large bottle of the Lucas product and ran it in ever tank after, until used up to protect and restore the system you should be OK, but I don't know for sure. I read the warning for the BG product and it seems more vague than what I see on the Techron and CRC product.
I have used the CRC product 3 tanks in a row then run the Lucas in every tank after with no ill effect. I run the Lucas in every tank in every car I own. That car however when left sit over the summer would misfire on first start until the Lucas lubed up the system, then would smooth out. It was my winter beater. The injectors were sticking much worse than they were before the procedure. I can't really say.
If you pull the injectors and have them tested I am not sure what your best approach is but often the cause of things like this is a piece of hard crud and it was stuck in a place where the pintle would pound it into the seat. When you clean that out it leaves a mark, so that injector leaks when closed or disturbs the flow just enough that the fuel coming out is reduced.
I always buy new injectors and there are other choices than the two you found. I spend the money to have them cleaned because I want to know, but then I spend more to replace. Last set I put in a car were new but not BMW originals but cost ~100 each. That is a choice I make but it is for someone else spending their money but not wanting them to come back and say it is still happening. My choices will be motivated differently than yours.
If you are replacing the fuel pump, do that first, before the filter, and drive several miles before you replace the filter, the new pump will pickup more crud in the tank than your old one did and deposit that in the filter. Let that crud get caught first before you replace the filter.
The other thing to consider is you have multiple things going on causing one issue sometimes doing one thing before another will hide the issue in the other. Personally I would not replace the fuel pump until I had checked the injectors then the fuel pressure regulator and the rest of the fuel system. A new pump can hide all the other faults. Then they come back after your new pump starts to wear in. They usually come back worse because they have had more time to fail.
The real problem is this is the net and things get skipped mainly because people don't have the skills or tools to do the tests. If you were bringing me your car when I did stuff like this I would look at the overall fuel trims then watch them live while reproducing the codes. Then I would do fuel pressure tests, then an outflow test of the returned fuel that goes to the tank. Next I would pull their mafs out, put mine in their car, get them to drive the car for a week and look at the trims again, but I would also drive my car with their MAFs to see if mine changed.
Then in all likelihood I would give them the bad news that we should replace the MAFs, do the injectors including the seals and also replace the fuel pump for good measure, because I can't have them come back and say it does not work. If I find any anomaly I address it. I also would likely change their TPS at the same time if they were original, just because I have seen issues with them causing issues with no codes.
Without the tests we are just guessing.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
@Sailor24, related to fuel trim, I've been looking through the live data options of my scanner to see if it does fuel trims. Would there happen to be another term or specific component I need to look under?

There are multiple different options
940614
940615
940616


I have never diagnosed a vehicle to this extent.

It was my understanding the fuel trim was air/fuel ratio which is what the O2 provides? Am I on the right path?
 

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Maybe the O2 sensor control or even the injection. Look at those and tell me what you see when driving. Injection might show the bandwidth and that could give a hint but will be hard to interpret. Really all you are going to be doing is look for change. Look elsewhere other than live data for the fuel trims. It could be fuel adaption or maybe long and short trim. The overall trim of the car will tell if things are balanced or if something is off, like MAFs or a leaky injector seal, maybe even low fuel pressure.
The problem with O2 readings is they happen so fast the device will not reproduce things that quick. I log them then send them to my PC and look at the graph to see what was going on.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
@Sailor24,

I was able to get some information and three data stream files, unfortunately however, this particular scanner (Foxwell NT530) converts everything to a .txt file and only the Foxwell scanner I have or the Foxwell Assist computer program seems to be able to run the data stream. I can replay the data stream in the scanner in graphic form, but what is difficult is that it puts the play back into a loop that is difficult to tell what is beginning and end of the file. The computer program will not show it as a graph, only number values as you play the stream.

In short, the txt files I have attached may or may not mean anything depending on if you are able to decipher the information without being the one to generate it. In each of these runs, I had the CEL activate with either just the original three codes (cyliner 1, 6 and several) with the last the last one triggering the original three plus cylinder 2 with cutout. The first two of these CEL's happened on relatively level surface to moderate hill where I sustained high rpms. The third CEL happened while I was pulling on to the highway. I believe I was in fourth gear where as all the former times the CEL was activated was in third, and I don't believe my rpm's were as high for the typical sustained amount of time. I was not expecting the third CEL to trigger when it did.

The 1st file I ran was the Injectors, the 2nd file was the Oxygen-Sensor Heater. The 3rd files was not within the BMW specific portion of the scanner software, but rather the OBDII section under the ISO 9141-2 Protocol Live Data Complete List. I think I had too many variable turned on to record for a couple of these runs (especially the last run). I'll figure this scanner and get better with it.

I have watched the data steam for both the injector run and the O2 run via the Foxwell Assist computer program and didn't see anything that I would understand as the smoking gun. The injectors, I watched the numbers as they relate to the other injectors and none of them seemed to be off when compared to the other injector numbers. I also didn't see any anomalies when watching O2 data stream either.

You mentioned you last used injectors other than the two I pointed to earlier, do you mind me asking which ones and from where?

Until the economy gets back up and running (at least in my industry) and my wife and find a new job after being laid off because of the pandemic, I'm not in a position to deal with the injectors just yet. The fuel pump and filter are coming though and depending on how things go this weekend, I may or may not replace them. I understand what you mean about one new component hiding the true cause of an issue, but I may have to push other possible culprits (and most likely more costly) down the road and take care of the items that may need to be replaced due to mileage and age even if they may not be contributing factors to this issue. If I do replace the fuel pump this coming weekend, I will certainly replace the fuel filter several miles after the pump.

I'll try to be more procises the next time I run the Live Data Streams to hopefully make them more understandable based on how it displayed the information.

Thank you @Sailor24 for all of your input, it is greatly appreciated.
 

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Short term fuel trims are negative, indicating a lean condition.... on both banks. Not what I was expecting.
 

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It was not the oxygen sensor heater but oxygen sensor control, but none the less I can't really make heads nor tails out of those but only because they are a wall of txt. I will try printing them tonight and using a pencil to keep my place.
If we are going to try this on a budget and you have a ton of free time anyway. You could either buy one of the cheap injectors and some new rings for a couple or even all and switch out number 6 for the rebuilt one or just some rings and switch injectors to different locations. The thing is injectors are a ton of work. For me it is pull them test them then replace them, exactly like that for economic reasons. I never even consider putting back cleaned one unless I go see the final test and can see for sure they don't leak when closed at full pressure.I used to but cleaned injectors seem to leak down the road or right away, I call it the lottery. Even on my own car I would do the same, just because.
If your time is free and you want to learn, switching might be a good exercise. The switching would have to be very specific, but I could sit down and figure out which to switch for you but it would be a process. You would be pulling it apart a few times.
Where I got my injectors? Don't remember, it would have been from a service not the stores you guys use. I don't cross border shop either. If my services can get them then they are available. I would have phoned around to each of the places and who ever gave me the best price gets my money.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Thank you @Sailor24 , I am still working but its mostly from home, so I do have some free time mostly evenings and weekends.

Before I get into this and have the top part of the car off before I realize I'm missing something, is there anything specific I should have beyond common hand tools whether is for taking what I need apart or putting it back together or anything specific for testing the injectors? I am for all intense and purposes a beginner with some engine repair experience and this would be the most indepth job I've done to date.

I think the way the GB Remanufacturing works is that you send your injectors in and the do their thing, but i would have to look into it further.

I'll look into this more and get back to you.

Thank you,
 

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There are tons of stuff you need to do the injectors, none of it specialized just stuff you acquire over the years, but you will not have any of it, if you are just a beginner. Pick set will help but so much more, basically like all jobs your toolbox full of tools. This is so hard to explain to people starting, but sometimes you need a magnet pickup, one will not do everything you need. So when the one does not work you go buy another and throw it in the toolbox. It is that big collection of tools that makes the job easy. Prying the electric rails off can be a big task and the more different little pry bars you have the better. Having a table saw so you can cut that perfect sized block of wood to fit under the pry bar is also handy.If someone had it off in the last 5 years you might just be able to pull it off by hand. It always feels like it is going to break, rarely does but feels like it should. Read a bunch and watch a ton of You Tube videos for this car and any other.
The task of explaining every possible problem to someone who has never done it is more than I can do. I will help you where I can. Ask questions and take pics when you face a particular problem. Once you get the electrics off then you need to clean really well because anything that falls in the engine will likely not come out. Compressed air will help or maybe a really strong shop vac with a small tool on the end. Don't leave stuff loose and plug the hole as soon as you pull an injector. Injectors can be stuck in also, most of the time they just come out, but not always. If you have a stubborn one take a pic. The worst I have had, I tapped a thread into the top of the injector and used a slide hammer. You likely don't have a tap set nor a slide hammer but the odds are very low you will face that, only happened to me once.
Then for reassembly Vaseline will be your friend for the o rings but a bit on the injector does not hurt.
It is one of those very simple jobs, but it can be very hard. Before you start look for a local injector service so you can deliver them by hand and go see the final test and have them pressurize each one and look that it does not leak. Little leaks are often over looked by techs because they don't matter on most cars. They do matter on this car.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
@Sailor24 ,

Is it still worth doing the MAF tests you recommended a couple days ago or need more specific data or are we to the point where we remove and test injectors?

This may take me some time to put together, but I will probably be following up with questions as I look into this.

I've been looking at injector option and beyond the two provided by both ECS Tuning and FCP Euro, I've come across a couple other.

Aristocrat Autosport (Fuel Delivery - Fuel Injector Sets - 8Cyl - Page 1 - Aristocrat Autosport)
also
Redline360 (DeatschWerks Fuel Injector [Set of 8] BMW M5 E39 S62 (00-03) 600cc/850cc/1100cc/2200cc)
&
FiveO Motorsports (Bosch, BMW S62 V-8, S85 V-10, Porsche 911 Turbo, Mercedes-AMG 6.3L, VW F32 )

It is my understanding that the stock injectors have a flow rate or 275cc (https://motoiq.com/bmw-e39-m5-fuel-pump-repair-with-deatschwerks/). The Deatschwerks units start at 600cc and up to 2200cc where as the FiveO/Siemens units start at 480cc up to 1200cc. Are these injectors intended for modified or forced induction applications? It seems if stock is 275cc, 480cc is almost doubled and the 600cc is that and some.

Is going with a higher flow rate beneficial or a waste? I do intend to have a tune done, intake and exhaust completed sometime in the future, but no intention of forced induction if that is a contributing factor.

Thank you,
 

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Yes do the MAF tests, test everything you can before you pull the injectors. As I said before I would do a ton of tests, then I would do the inevitable replace parts. Throw a bottle of PEA in also. The worst that will happen is you will damage a damaged injector. We are still guessing at the injector it could be the DME driver for either #1 or #6 coil.
My gut says it is injector #6 but since I have never seen the car, it is a huge stretch. It could be a bad couple of blocks in the DME with corrupt data and you might need a simple reinstall of the car operating system which would avoid those bad blocks and all would be good again.
You have to use the correct injector with the correct flow rate. It is complex, likely those might be for forced air upgrades. In simple terms at WOT you want your injector duty cycle at ~90%. The number is specific sorry I don't remember. I do remember that flowing pressurized fuel has some unique characteristics. Like longer duty cycles (than the max number)produce less fuel and changing the pressure will not yield the expected results a car guy would expect. The engineer knows, but the car guy says I am not buying new injector I am going to crank up the fuel pressure and actually gets less fuel than expected. For a little while until his motor melts. There is some tolerance it does not have to be exact just really close. Little adjustments do work.
One of the Bosch colors is an acceptable replacement and there are several others, but I don't remember which ones, but you can find them. Since most of these injectors come from US companies or sellers try searching in lbs/hr instead of cc/min, you might get more sellers in your search results.
My approach would be the old fashion way, I would get on the phone. Then ask what their numbers mean and say Hey I just want to replace stock injectors do you have some how much.
 
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