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Discussion Starter #1
I have a 2001 M5 with +89k miles. I’ve owned the car just over a year and have put almost 15k miles on her. I was lucky enough to purchase the car from board member M and Ms (Dan), see his thread (New E39 M5 owner, let me introduced you to her.). It’s a beautiful car and it has been a blast to own. As you can see Dan did do a lot of maintenance items and services while she was in his care; however, history prior to his ownership is minimal.

I have been keeping up with regular oil changes (with Blackstone reports) and addressing items as needed (wheel speed sensors, trunk and gas lid actuators, thermostat, temp sensors, etc.). I purchased the Foxwell NT530 Multi-System Scanner with software loaded specific to the BMW model range. I was originally looking at the Peake Reader, but their company does not seem to be around any longer. The Foxwell unit provides Hex formatted codes and I can convert them to Decimal format using EndTuning's website (EndTuning - BMW Codes). When showing the codes I pulled, I will put them in this format (when both are available) - Codes: Hex format (Decimal Format).

Prior to my forthcoming misfires, between October and March I had the following codes throughout various scans (not all of them happened at the same time, but code 69 was fairly consistent):

69 (105) “Engine Coolant Temperature Implausible”
CD (205) Misfiring, cylinder 1 without cylinder cutout.
CE (206) Misfiring, cylinder 2 without cylinder cutout.
CF (207) Misfiring, cylinder 3 without cylinder cutout.
D0 (208) Misfiring, cylinder 4 without cylinder cutout.
D1 (209) Misfiring, cylinder 5 without cylinder cutout.
D2 (210) Misfiring, cylinder 6 without cylinder cutout.
D3 (211) Misfiring, cylinder 7 without cylinder cutout.
D5 (213) Misfiring, several cylinders without cylinder cutout.

This is what initiated the thermostat and both temp sensors replacement

In the Denver metro area, there is as small hill just south of Boulder (Hwy-93) and also up I-70. I have found during the past couple months that going up a hill (or mountain pass) at high RPM’s (between 5000 to 6000) under load, my CEL will activate and the engine begins to feel sluggish. The first time it happened (south on Hwy-93 coming out of Boulder), I continued to drive thinking I would check the codes when I got home. After about 10 minutes of easy driving, the CEL turned off and the sluggishness went away (all normal the remainder of the drive home). When I checked the codes, I got this:

C4 (196) Misfiring, cylinder 1 with cylinder cutout.

As a starting point, I replaced the spark plug with the standard type (NGK-3199 [BMW BKR6EQUP]) at 88,342 miles.

The spark plugs I pulled out didn’t appear to have been in the car that long (which would make sense as Den referenced changing them in his thread above not long before my ownership). There wasn’t any one plug that appeared to be worse off then the others, there was no oil present in the spark plug wells and all of the ignition coil boots were dry. I put the coils back in their original cylinder.

At 88453 miles, I added BG 44K Platinum Fuel System Cleaner when I filled up the fuel tank.

Went to the same hill to try to recreate the conditions and she did it again, threw a CEL and was running rough. This time I pulled over when it was safe (within 1 or 2 miles of the CEL) and got the following codes. After clearing the codes, the CEL was off and she drove fine the remainder of the ride home:

C4 (196) Misfiring, cylinder 1 with cylinder cutout.
C9 (201) Misfiring, cylinder 6 with cylinder cutout.
CC (204) Misfiring, several cylinders with cylinder cutout.

Based on reading some threads in the forum, I started to diagnose the ignition coils to see if they were the culprit. At 88,532 miles, I swapped coil 1 with coil 3 and coil 6 with 5.

Again, went to the same hill, she threw a CEL and ran rough, pulled over checked the codes, restarted the engine, CEL was gone. Got the following codes:

C4 (196) Misfiring, cylinder 1 with cylinder cutout.
C9 (201) Misfiring, cylinder 6 with cylinder cutout.
CC (204) Misfiring, several cylinders with cylinder cutout.
D1 (209) Misfiring, cylinder 5 without cylinder cutout.

At 88,670 miles, I put all the coils back to their original positions, then swapped 1 to 4 and 6 to 7.

Again, went to the same hill and threw no codes. I then went up I-70 just west of Denver and she threw a CEL and ran rough, pulled over checked the codes, restarted the engine, CEL was gone. Got the following codes:

C4 (196) Misfiring, cylinder 1 with cylinder cutout.
C9 (201) Misfiring, cylinder 6 with cylinder cutout.
CC (204) Misfiring, several cylinders with cylinder cutout.

At 89, 057 miles, I put all the coils back to their original positions, then swapped 1 to 2 and 6 to 8.

I then went up I-70 again and she threw a CEL and ran rough, pulled over checked the codes, restarted the engine, CEL was gone. Got the following codes:

C4 (196) Misfiring, cylinder 1 with cylinder cutout.
C9 (201) Misfiring, cylinder 6 with cylinder cutout.
CC (204) Misfiring, several cylinders with cylinder cutout.
CD (205) Misfiring, cylinder 1 without cylinder cutout.
CF (207) Misfiring, cylinder 3 without cylinder cutout.
D0 (208) Misfiring, cylinder 4 without cylinder cutout.
D1 (209) Misfiring, cylinder 5 without cylinder cutout.
D2 (210) Misfiring, cylinder 6 without cylinder cutout.
D3 (211) Misfiring, cylinder 7 without cylinder cutout.
D5 (213) Misfiring, several cylinders without cylinder cutout.

Because I’m fairly confident as to when this condition happens based on the various re-runs I’ve done (hill [or mountain pass] at high RPM’s (between 5000 to 6000) under load), I was able to drive from Denver to Steamboat Springs and back this week without any issues (this is over a couple mountain passes).

As of this post, I have not swapped back the coils to their original positions, but based on cylinder 1 and 6 consistently misfiring with cylinder cutout, I’m fairly confident that the coils are fine. There were some anomalies that happened when I was repositioning coils, but I don’t think these anomalies constituted bad coils. I could be wrong. I don’t remember the exact date stamped on the coils, but I’m pretty sure they are sometime 2000 making them original to the car.

Reading through the forum threads, given these general conditions, there doesn’t seem to be a one item replaced solves everything solution to this issue so I’m trying to figure out my next move.

Based on the former owners thread, it appears that the fuel filter was replaced, but not the fuel pump making it possibly original to the car. I am wondering if it could be the fuel pump. While driving, I can rev the engine up to 6000 rpm for short bursts (downshifting to pass another car) and the CEL is not activated. It only appears to happen between 5000 to 6000 rpm for a sustained period while going up a hill (i.e. under load) which makes me think it may be a fuel pump. It may be possible the fuel pump is not able to sustain fuel pressure at that high of rpm for a sustained period of time while short bursts to high rpm’s don’t tax the fuel pump. Does this make sense?

Reading through the forum, I understand that my assumption could be incorrect and it could be something else entirely such as fuel injectors, O2 sensors (the primary’s were replaced by the former owner per his thread), CPS sensors (again, replaced by the former owner per his thread), or vanos.

Please be forewarned, this may be a drawn out thread. Due to the current economic conditions, my income has been reduced and I am having to prioritize between car repairs and other household bills. So although I greatly appreciate any feed back or suggestions you may provide, I may not be able to run out and follow through with your suggestions within the day or two to report back on the outcome. Depending on the next step, I may have to wait a month or two before proceeding. I intend to do as much of the work and maintenance on my car as possible, but I do have my limits based on my own experiences.

I will however, continue to follow up on my progress and post the final outcome of this is the thing that made my “Mistress” whole again and she’s no longer misfiring.

Thank you,
 

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That is a tough one. It could be many things you have not even looked at yet. To start coils draw a huge amount of electricity at high RPM but also need time to recover. Simple thing to do is bring up the volts on the secret menu and go do your test again and see if you are maintaining the volts as you climb that hill. Even if you are that does not mean you don't have a dirty connection some place so look at all the joints. One is under that battery post under the hood for jumping. Clean the battery terminals and even if they look clean scrub them with some detergent. Try again.
Next I would test the MAFs. Unplug them electrically and drive the car for 50 miles or so then go do your test again. If they are bad you need to have the 50 miles driven to let the adaptions normalize. If you went to the hill and unplugged them the computer would put out the same amount of fuel as if they were plugged in because the adaptions say so. You will get 3 codes from the MAFs two for them being unplugged and one because the IAT sensor is also in there. Remember that you don't have an air temp reading and the ECU will be guessing so no racing before you get to the hill. One hard pull up the hill should be safe enough.
Through all those tests you might not see a cure but you are really just looking for different behavior to give a hint at what is going on.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you Sailor24. Let me look into this and follow through with your suggestions. The volt test and connection verification should not be a problem within the next few days; however, since I've never completed the type of MAF test you suggested, I may have a couple more questions specific to it before I proceed with it.

I will follow up with results and/or additional questions.

Thank you.
 

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I recently had the exact same symptoms and codes on my 01 at about 60k miles. It only happened once or maybe twice before I decided to tear into the intake system and investigate while replacing both VCGs. I replaced all the little vacuum hoses, some of the big ones, oil separators, cleaned ICV, VCGs, evap purge valve (preventative), and MAFs. There wasn't any indication of vacuum leaks or holes in the hoses, though the small ones were tired. The only relevant item in my list is MAFs so I suspect that was the problem. I've driven almost 4k miles worth of road trips over the past month or so and no sign of any returning issues, and it pulls harder and smoother up top. There were these irritating discrete jumps in power before at WOT as it climbed through the RPMs rather than the flat torque curve that BMWs of this era are known for and that was totally gone after the above work. I didn't bother with any switching around coils or testing the MAFs because this is a long term car for me and decided that throwing new MAFs at it wouldn't hurt, given FCP's lifetime replacement warranty :) Seems I got lucky.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
repoman89, in your case, are you thinking that it was the MAFs causing your issues and that the VCG replacement and hoses were just icing on the cake?

Per the previous owners forum thread (linked above), he did staye that he replaced the MAFs; however, I've looked and can not find a build date on them. I'll need to see if I can find a record of them in the receipts he provided.

I am hoping to do Sailor24s first recommendation before the weekend and the second half with the MAFs unplugged this weekend.

I do suspect that the VCG on my car do need to be replaced. Is it a doable job for a relative beginner with some mechanical experience? Can you list part numbers for the hoses you replaced and any tidbits that may be usefullwhile replacing the gaskets and hoses?

I intend to keep this car for as long as my left foot can push a clutch. This is the best & funnestcar I've owned and there is nothing else i know of that would replace it in my mind.

Thank you,
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Update:

Sailor24, I have done the first part of your recommendation this afternoon. I did the volt test (menu Item No. 9) while driving to the start of the I-70 hill (going west out of Denver) and up it. Prior to the hill getting step, I had the car in 3rd gear and stayed around 5500 rpm. I didn't expect the CEL light to trigger at that portion of the hill because there is not much load on the car compared to being further up. I'm suspecting staying at or around those rpm's for a length of time is either whats triggering the CEL or a contributing factor.

While driving there and going up the portion of the hill that I did, the volts maintained a steady 13.4 to 13.6. There were no significant variation specifically when the CEL was triggered or prior to it. I pilled over at the next exit and pulled the same three typical codes:

C4 (196) Misfiring, cylinder 1 with cylinder cutout.
C9 (201) Misfiring, cylinder 6 with cylinder cutout.
CC (204) Misfiring, several cylinders with cylinder cutout.

Cleared the codes, restarted the engine and she drove fine on the way home.

Last night I tried to find a date stamp on the MAF's, so I pulled them out of the tube. No date stamp that I could find, but I did clean them with MAF cleaner and let them dry prior to re-inserting them. Just before my drive today, I added a can of BG 44K Platinum Fuel System Cleaner to the gas tank and filled it up as it was low prior to running up the hill this afternoon.

The battery terminals all look clean (two in the trunk, the engine mounted one and the negative terminal on the strut tower) when I looked at them last night; however, within the next couple days I will clean them all with water and baking soda as you recommended.

I'm hoping this Saturday early morning before it gets hot to unplug the MAF's, drive the 50+ miles and do the hill test again.

I'll let you know what comes of it.

Thank you,
 

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Update:

Sailor24, I have done the first part of your recommendation this afternoon. I did the volt test (menu Item No. 9) while driving to the start of the I-70 hill (going west out of Denver) and up it. Prior to the hill getting step, I had the car in 3rd gear and stayed around 5500 rpm. I didn't expect the CEL light to trigger at that portion of the hill because there is not much load on the car compared to being further up. I'm suspecting staying at or around those rpm's for a length of time is either whats triggering the CEL or a contributing factor.

While driving there and going up the portion of the hill that I did, the volts maintained a steady 13.4 to 13.6. There were no significant variation specifically when the CEL was triggered or prior to it. I pilled over at the next exit and pulled the same three typical codes:

C4 (196) Misfiring, cylinder 1 with cylinder cutout.
C9 (201) Misfiring, cylinder 6 with cylinder cutout.
CC (204) Misfiring, several cylinders with cylinder cutout.

Cleared the codes, restarted the engine and she drove fine on the way home.

Last night I tried to find a date stamp on the MAF's, so I pulled them out of the tube. No date stamp that I could find, but I did clean them with MAF cleaner and let them dry prior to re-inserting them. Just before my drive today, I added a can of BG 44K Platinum Fuel System Cleaner to the gas tank and filled it up as it was low prior to running up the hill this afternoon.

The battery terminals all look clean (two in the trunk, the engine mounted one and the negative terminal on the strut tower) when I looked at them last night; however, within the next couple days I will clean them all with water and baking soda as you recommended.

I'm hoping this Saturday early morning before it gets hot to unplug the MAF's, drive the 50+ miles and do the hill test again.

I'll let you know what comes of it.

Thank you,
Before following Sailor's very good advice, you might want to try one more time with the MAFs.

Cleaning MAF's will often TEMPORARILY cure a bad MAF issue. So if you run again and no change, then unplugging MAF's are the way to go. However, if you see improvement, then the MAF's are very likely the culprit.

From memory, correct Bosch MAF's end in "280". Get from respected supplier, this is too important to get "knock off".

Regards,
Jerry
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Jerry, I will do that thank you.

Per RealOEM (RealOEM.com - Online BMW Parts Catalog), the MAF's (as a whole assembly) have the part number 13621433566. I need to look at the car to see what the complete assembly numbers are on mine, but when I removed just the MAF's themselves (originally looking for a stamped date) from their tubes, they have the Bosch part no. F 00C 2G2 029 on both of them.

FCP Euro appear to have the complete units for a decent price (BMW Mass Air Flow Sensor - Bosch 0280217533) with the RealOEM matching numbers.

I will do the same volt test again as you suggest.

Thank you,
 

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Jerry, I will do that thank you.

Per RealOEM (RealOEM.com - Online BMW Parts Catalog), the MAF's (as a whole assembly) have the part number 13621433566. I need to look at the car to see what the complete assembly numbers are on mine, but when I removed just the MAF's themselves (originally looking for a stamped date) from their tubes, they have the Bosch part no. F 00C 2G2 029 on both of them.

FCP Euro appear to have the complete units for a decent price (BMW Mass Air Flow Sensor - Bosch 0280217533) with the RealOEM matching numbers.

I will do the same volt test again as you suggest.

Thank you,
I stand corrected. I believe 029 is the correct number, unless it has been superseded. There should be a bunch of info here from years ago when there was a VW MAF available that was much cheaper. It ran about 4% richer.

Don't bother with the whole assembly, all you need is the actual MAF insert. Much cheaper. Some have security torx screws. You can buy a set of torx bits at Sears or almost anywhere.

Regards,
Jerry
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Jerry,

Are you referring to one of these two threads (Bosch MAF too good to be true?) OR (Changed MAF with 2x Bosch VW = F 00C 2G2 032) although I'm sure a search will yield countless threads and/or posts. I just happened to have one of these open already. As with many of the threads in this forum, there are some members gung-ho on the MAF element only approach where others (notable M5 London whom I only reference as he was in both threads) saying PASS, move on to the complete BMW part number assembly.

I did a search based on the Bosch MAF element only part number (F 00C 2G2 029) and the only what I think is a reputable company that has popped up is Bimmerzone (BMW 5 Series E39 M5 (00-03) Air Mass Flow Sensor (MAF) by BOSCH - F 00C 2G2 029 (PAIR)) at $250.00 for the pair.

Currently FCP Euro is selling the complete Bosch assembly with housing (BMW Mass Air Flow Sensor - Bosch 0280217533) for just shy of $113 each ($226 for a pair) The Bosch part number (0280217533) reference back to the RealOEM part number (13621433566) within FCP Euro's website.

If I do end up having to replace the MAF's, I'll probably go the FCP route unless someone has another cost effective source for either the elements only or the complete assembly.

What I do think is odd though is that the MAF elements I pulled out of my car do not have a date stamp or any other indication of when they were manufactured which makes me wonder of they are true Bosch units or knock-offs.

Within the next day or two, I'll do the volt test that Sailor24 recommended before I do the MAF removal test this weekend.

Thank you,
 

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Jerry,

Are you referring to one of these two threads (Bosch MAF too good to be true?) OR (Changed MAF with 2x Bosch VW = F 00C 2G2 032) although I'm sure a search will yield countless threads and/or posts. I just happened to have one of these open already. As with many of the threads in this forum, there are some members gung-ho on the MAF element only approach where others (notable M5 London whom I only reference as he was in both threads) saying PASS, move on to the complete BMW part number assembly.

I did a search based on the Bosch MAF element only part number (F 00C 2G2 029) and the only what I think is a reputable company that has popped up is Bimmerzone (BMW 5 Series E39 M5 (00-03) Air Mass Flow Sensor (MAF) by BOSCH - F 00C 2G2 029 (PAIR)) at $250.00 for the pair.

Currently FCP Euro is selling the complete Bosch assembly with housing (BMW Mass Air Flow Sensor - Bosch 0280217533) for just shy of $113 each ($226 for a pair) The Bosch part number (0280217533) reference back to the RealOEM part number (13621433566) within FCP Euro's website.

If I do end up having to replace the MAF's, I'll probably go the FCP route unless someone has another cost effective source for either the elements only or the complete assembly.

What I do think is odd though is that the MAF elements I pulled out of my car do not have a date stamp or any other indication of when they were manufactured which makes me wonder of they are true Bosch units or knock-offs.

Within the next day or two, I'll do the volt test that Sailor24 recommended before I do the MAF removal test this weekend.

Thank you,
You have one of the old threads discussing proper BMW MAF vs. VW MAF. So confirms 029 correct one.

If you can buy the entire housing for the same price as just the insert, go ahead. Amount of labor slightly more, but you don't have to worry about pulling out the sensor and messing with the security bit. Just confirm with the seller the MAF sensor itself has the correct Bosch number. I suspect it will be correct.

Regards,
Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter #12
As you recommended Jerry (@gsfent), I did the same volt test again (actually twice) with the same approximate results.

Had the car in 3rd gear at about 5500 to 6000 rpm for a sustained amount of time (30+ seconds maybe vs going into that rev range for only a few seconds or so), the CEL was activated and the engine ran noticeably rougher. Pulled over as soon as I could, checked the codes, cleared them and restarted. No CEL and she drove like nothing ever happened. While driving, the volts remained at about 13.5 to 13.7 even when the CEL was activated.

Same codes:
C4 (196) Misfiring, cylinder 1 with cylinder cutout.
C9 (201) Misfiring, cylinder 6 with cylinder cutout.
CC (204) Misfiring, several cylinders with cylinder cutout.

I am hoping Saturday morning before it get hot here in the Denver metro area to unplug the MAF and proceed with Sailor24's earlier suggestion.

I do have a question however. Jerry, you mentioned earlier:

"Cleaning MAF's will often TEMPORARILY cure a bad MAF issue. So if you run again and no change, then unplugging MAF's are the way to go. However, if you see improvement, then the MAF's are very likely the culprit. "

Would the voltage test tell me anything about the health status of the MAF's? Cleaning the MAF's when I did may have skewed the test. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what change might I have seen based on your comment "... run again and no change..."?

@Sailor24, when I do this MAF test (unplugging the MAF's, driving 50+ miles then run the same scenario that typically triggers the CEL and the rough running engine), is there something specific I should be looking at (one of the menus, a specific gauge, etc...) or for?

I'll follow up with more once I have it.

Thank you,
 

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Within the next day or two, I'll do the volt test that Sailor24 recommended before I do the MAF removal test this weekend.

Thank you,
I think I see the reason for hesitation here. There is no removal of anything. Open the hood find the two MAF electrical plugs, push the little buttons and slip the plug off and tuck it in behind. Leave the MAFs alone they need to stay connected to the plenum and air filters. Close the hood and drive.
No date stamp does sort of suggest knock offs, I don't even have a car to have a look at to confirm, it is 1800 Kms away and I am pretty sure I have not even started it in year. I do love this twin turbo Audi, I can't leave it alone, so much for weekend toy. Best darn daily I ever had.
If this does turn out to be MAFs you should put your injectors as your next service item. The consistency of 1 and 6 is a warning they maybe off or maybe they are the only two still within tolerance, either or they are seemingly different than the others.
The Chem you are putting in your tank do you know the active ingredient? It needs to be the same active ingredient as Techron or CRC Guaranteed to Pass. Nothing will do half the job that ingredient does, it is in quite a few so you just want to check and make sure you use it. There will be a warning to only use it once in so many miles. Think it might be 5000 KM but don't quote me, my memory is failing.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
@Sailor24, you are right, I didn't find a definitive answer, but it does seem to range between 4k to 15k miles that people were using the BG 44k product. Hopefully I didn't hurt anything using it so soon. I learned of this product through a former mechanic who worked on most of my saabs through college and after which were all over 150k to 250k by the time I owned them.

I found what I could to compare the two products, but I may have to actually take a photo of each of the product labels to get a better comparison

BG 44K (image taken from: BG 44K Fuel System Cleaner Review)
940544


Image below from: Techron - Wikipedia
940543


I will definitely look into the Techron the next time I look at a fuel system cleaner (say 5k milesish).

I understood what you meant related to unpluging the MAF's over completely removing them, I believe I just miss-spoke when I typed it earlier, but thank you for the clarification.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Thank you,
 

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I can't say for sure because, memory, but I think it is the PEA. It is also in the CRC product. Try a fast search on pea injector cleaner this comes to the top.
It lists the cleaner you are using as having PEA in it even though the material sheet does not list it, I am confused.
Anyway it is your car so you have to figure out what works for you. Even though the page is at the top I am not sure about the accuracy. The Lucas product we get up here does not have PEA but the name is a little different. They call it a cleaner upper head lube. It might have to do with licensing in the different countries, Chevron owns the patent and likely sells the right to use it and that might be by country. The only product we can or could get was the CRC with PEA.
To me it does not matter because I use Lucas in every tank so I never have deposits I need to clean. The fact it can be used in every tank tells me it does not have PEA or very little if it does. Maybe some chems don't have to be listed. if they are in very small amounts.
 

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BTW, has the fuel pump been replaced? I had strange hesitation issues, when my fuel pump was going, no CEL though.
 

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I read halfway through the first post and was already thinking fuel pump. You get misfires in the FRONT cylinders going UPHILL at high rpms. Pressure gradient in the fuel rails because pump is weak. Lean misfires in the front cylinders.
Why cyl 6 and not 5? The ECU is basically guessing at the problem cylinder based on CKPS pulses. So I'm guessing it's guessing wrong.
I would do the secret menu MAFS test on a level road and if that is good, put in a new fuel pump.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
@booster_, I don't have any record of the fuel pump being replaced, and without pulling the unit out and looking for a born-on-date, I don't have a way of verifying it. Based on that, I have to assume that it is the original. Supposedly the fuel filter was replaced by the former owner, but I would need to verify that.

Prior to starting this thread, I was thinking that the fuel pump may be the culprit thinking that if I was having the misfire with cutouts when I sustain high rpms that maybe it wasn't able to maintain the fuel pressure required for those rpm's.

Other board members have brought up other justifiable items to check as possibilities which I appreciate. I want to resolve the issue, not throw money at everything hoping one of them will resolve it. With the current economy, I'm not in that financial position.

The fuel pump is a possibility that I hope to verify one way or another.

Thank you,
 

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It will not be easy to test. You could hook up a fuel gauge and go climb your hill. You will need to figure out an extension for the gauge and zip tie it to your wiper.
 
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