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Discussion Starter #1
Recently I have installed meisterschaft with section 1&2 in the morning and then 20" radenergie wheels in the evening (back in March). My car feel slower and not as quick as before. I guess with 20" rims will make my car slower due to a heavier wheel set, and cornering not as sharp as a OEM wheel set due to a lower profile (less absorb/more rigid). And after reading couple of threads regarding aftermarket muffler, I'm not hoping for any noticeable gain in power. But the problem I currently have that I can't stand any longer is lack of response when step on a gas pedal (car feel like choking, not as smooth) Is it because of lack of backpressure due to muffler&section1&2 installation? At idle, sometime engine sound like it's choking too. Is it possible that section1&2 allow more air flow into the engine and mess up the air/gas ratio?

I plan to get the Evosport pulley/ECU upgrade whenever I have time. Please advise with pulley&ECU will help me on the choking problem. I'm hoping that ECU tuning will adjust the ratio better suit for aftermarket muffler with no cat/resonator setup. Is there any ECU tuning that specifically tune for a specific setup (muffler+section1&2+pulley)

BTW, the meisterschaft, section1&2 combo sound terrific. No regret on that, but would like to have performance along with look and sound as well.

Thank you for your response in advance.
 

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Less backpressure usually results in low-end torque loss with upper rpm HP gain. I would guess that you're experiencing the torque loss. The Radenergie's are also quite heavy. A lower profile tire will give better handling, but you're heavier wheels are offsetting that.
 

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after having the eisenmann section 1,2 and race exhaust and removing the charcoal filters i asked the service manager how long it would take for the computer to adjust for the car running lean.the guy told me it takes about 300 miles and he was right.my car would break the tire free through first gear and then again in second befor it hooked and then chirp the tire at 3rd and 4th gear befor i had the mod done but right after it would barley chirp the tire in first.after i put some miles on it the car is running strong in the low end again, so i would venture to say he was correct.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
after having the eisenmann section 1,2 and race exhaust and removing the charcoal filters i asked the service manager how long it would take for the computer to adjust for the car running lean.the guy told me it takes about 300 miles and he was right.my car would break the tire free through first gear and then again in second befor it hooked and then chirp the tire at 3rd and 4th gear befor i had the mod done but right after it would barley chirp the tire in first.after i put some miles on it the car is running strong in the low end again, so i would venture to say he was correct.
Thank you your reply, but I would be surprise that ECU will have a feedback loop that automatically adjust to the mod. I have been put more than 500miles since the mod, and still feel choking from the start, but after running past 1st or 2nd gear, it's just fine. The symptom looks like my old car when I had the throttle body done, and the choking went away after the mechanic readjust the fuel/air ratio (noticed that rpm at idle was higher than normal to keep it from choking at idle)
 

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i am just going on what i was told and how my car reacted after the changes,which could have just been coincidence.i am sure there are more qualified people on the board that can give you more accurate answer to your question.when changing the airbox and installing a full exhaust on my track bike i had to remap the air,fuel mix with the EMS on a dyno but i always figured a car with oxygen sensors would adjust the mix due to less back pressure, but again this is an assumption.
i apologize if i made a false claim.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
i am just going on what i was told and how my car reacted after the changes,which could have just been coincidence.i am sure there are more qualified people on the board that can give you more accurate answer to your question.when changing the airbox and installing a full exhaust on my track bike i had to remap the air,fuel mix with the EMS on a dyno but i always figured a car with oxygen sensors would adjust the mix due to less back pressure, but again this is an assumption.
i apologize if i made a false claim.
No worry and thanks for your response. I think even with O2 sensor on M5, it still need to readjust air/fuel ratio like your track bike.
:cheers:
 

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I had a similar problem after installing the Meisterschaft system.
Removing the charcoal filters resolved the issue.
Continue to use the OEM BMW air filters.
 

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Unless there are tuners out there that know the A/F ratios (I don't think there are any yet) you are out of luck when you change your section 1, 2 and even mufflers when going to a "race" version. The first thing I noticed when I had the Eisenmann mufflers was loss of low end torque. Would an ECU upgrade help this?..yes but the tuners have to know the A/F ratios and that will be some time....

Patience grasshoppa

BTW...I had the 20" Radenergie R10's and they are the same weight as stock (I weighed them). The wheels are not the problem.


Cheers ///
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Unless there are tuners out there that know the A/F ratios (I don't think there are any yet) you are out of luck when you change your section 1, 2 and even mufflers when going to a "race" version. The first thing I noticed when I had the Eisenmann mufflers was loss of low end torque. Would an ECU upgrade help this?..yes but the tuners have to know the A/F ratios and that will be some time....

Patience grasshoppa

BTW...I had the 20" Radenergie R10's and they are the same weight as stock (I weighed them). The wheels are not the problem.


Cheers ///
Glad to know that R10 and OEM wheels are in the same ballpark. What is its weight anyway?

So far from all responses, section1&2 with race muffler will introduce more air into the engine that may cause choking/low-end torque problem (similar to throttle body installation) and you need to re-tune ECU to adapt to a new air/fuel ratio value.
 

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i came across this in a Evosport header thread......
with the M5/M6, the car runs in closed loop all the time, therefore the stock software will adapt and match the fuel needs to the airflow. This will give you the same A/F with or without headers. The software will give you more gains (in other areas), but in this rare case, the software is NOT critical at all with the addition of the header.

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Brad Otoupalik | evosport

this may only pertain to header replacement..
 

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i came across this in a Evosport header thread......
with the M5/M6, the car runs in closed loop all the time, therefore the stock software will adapt and match the fuel needs to the airflow. This will give you the same A/F with or without headers. The software will give you more gains (in other areas), but in this rare case, the software is NOT critical at all with the addition of the header.

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Brad Otoupalik | evosport

this may only pertain to header replacement..
Why wouldn't the software respond similarily with the Meisterschaft system? Certainly exhaust manufacturers balance the sound note with the changes in A/F...or do they? Theroetically couldn't you balance the amount of change in restriction to air flow to optimise Hp/Tq? It seems Dinan has, since they published the dyno changes. Maybe some do and some don't and you need to consider this also in your choice. BTW I have not yet added an exhaust but this gives me something else to think about.??????
 

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This past weekend i had the Meisterschaft w. cf and the x-pipes put on and the response out of first seems so much smoother then before alot more aggressive and the lag doesnt seem to be there anymore. Have you thought putting back the front section of your exhaust back in? Is there a comparision w. all the dynos on the exhuast systems? (sport, race(+/- pipes), ss (+/- pipes 1,2)...).

Side note: The exhuast sounds great not to loud at all, and really clean(no bubbling).
 

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Discussion Starter #13
This past weekend i had the Meisterschaft w. cf and the x-pipes put on and the response out of first seems so much smoother then before alot more aggressive and the lag doesnt seem to be there anymore. Have you thought putting back the front section of your exhaust back in? Is there a comparision w. all the dynos on the exhuast systems? (sport, race(+/- pipes), ss (+/- pipes 1,2)...).

Side note: The exhuast sounds great not to loud at all, and really clean(no bubbling).
So, when you said "before" means you had section1 too or "before"means plain OEM? In matter of fact, I don't want to put back OEM section1, but I want some kind of work around to achieve a better response with aftermarket section1 installed. The bubbling sound you said probably similar to my "choking" description (may caused by removing section1 which introduced more air into the engine.) I love in what i have so far, but hopefully by remapping ECU and evosport pulley might help in a better response and aggressiveness, what you think?
 

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Independent Dyno jet testing on Meist Section 1 and 2 shows
following gains:

Max Power : 430.4 ---> 432.4 (+2 hp)
Max TQ: 313.9 --->320.9 (+7 tq)

ECU needs to be self-adjusted: Fuzzy Logic sensor loop.
- car needs to breathe right.
 

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So, when you said "before" means you had section1 too or "before"means plain OEM? In matter of fact, I don't want to put back OEM section1, but I want some kind of work around to achieve a better response with aftermarket section1 installed. The bubbling sound you said probably similar to my "choking" description (may caused by removing section1 which introduced more air into the engine.) I love in what i have so far, but hopefully by remapping ECU and evosport pulley might help in a better response and aggressiveness, what you think?
Remapping ECU will def help - if you get it done right, Recommend it.
Pulley will help - no harm on that one. Do it~!!:)
Headers - won't help. DO NOT list.
 

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This past weekend i had the Meisterschaft w. cf and the x-pipes put on and the response out of first seems so much smoother then before alot more aggressive and the lag doesnt seem to be there anymore.

Side note: The exhuast sounds great not to loud at all, and really clean(no bubbling).
This is what we usually see from Meist section 1+2 installed customers - including local customers we have.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Remapping ECU will def help - if you get it done right, Recommend it.
Pulley will help - no harm on that one. Do it~!!:)
Headers - won't help. DO NOT list.
What brand of ECU you suggest? I like kellener, but it's oversea. Dinan for safe bet. PowerChip? AA? I would like a feedback not just performance, but customer service in case I have to re-flash the ECU when dealer upgrade. That's why I hesitate on import one like Kellener.
 

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What brand of ECU you suggest? I like kellener, but it's oversea. Dinan for safe bet. PowerChip? AA? I would like a feedback not just performance, but customer service in case I have to re-flash the ECU when dealer upgrade. That's why I hesitate on import one like Kellener.
Up front, ECU is a tricky biz - tough to know which one works the best.

Kelleners is great - since they are custom ECUs.
- unless you are a local eisenhaus (kelleners USA) customer,
you can not get the flash back service if you are in US.

and pretty much all ECU prog - doesn't matter what brand you choose,
they are all same imo - copy of each others.. :-(
If you would want to proceed - tryout Powerchip - Discovery Auto.
They are here somewhere on this forum.

But Before anything,
I would try out the factory logic to settle down first and also check
the gamma sensors (O2 sensor) - it might be touched / bothered
when the section 1 was installed - just a guess..

Good luck to you - you got a good set up - it should work out.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Up front, ECU is a tricky biz - tough to know which one works the best.

Kelleners is great - since they are custom ECUs.
- unless you are a local eisenhaus (kelleners USA) customer,
you can not get the flash back service if you are in US.

and pretty much all ECU prog - doesn't matter what brand you choose,
they are all same imo - copy of each others.. :-(
If you would want to proceed - tryout Powerchip - Discovery Auto.
They are here somewhere on this forum.

But Before anything,
I would try out the factory logic to settle down first and also check
the gamma sensors (O2 sensor) - it might be touched / bothered
when the section 1 was installed - just a guess..

Good luck to you - you got a good set up - it should work out.
What do u mean by trying out the factory logic to settle down-> wait until software adapts to the new setup? My section1&2 and meistershaft were installed by Evosport and I think the O2 sensor should still be functional otherwise the waring light should lid up, I guess.
 
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