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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
As some of you were aware the result at RPI Shoot out between ///Marshall(M6), zzyzx(M5), and myself(M5) on Feb.9. I got 406.5hp and [email protected] (see first graph). And ///Marshall(M6) got 421hp and 311ft-lb (if memory served, and he could post his result also)

My mods included Evosport Headers/pulley, BMC filter, RPI Scoop, Charcoal filter deleted, Arqray exhaust with stock ecu and SES check engine light :haha:.

///Marshall mods included Evosport headers/pulley, BMC filter, RPI Scoop, Charcoal filter deleted, Dinan exhaust and 3.91differential with Evosport/powerchip ecu tuned.

Yes, we have almost identical mods except diff and ecu and I was 15hp and 30ft-lb lower than ///Marshall (oh, he used race-gas mixture on that day to get 421hp).

After ESS ecu tuned on my car and redyno again on last saturday(see 2nd graph), I got 420.8hp and [email protected] in shoot-out mode using ///Marshall as reference (while he got 427hp and 311ft-lb, 91octane gas). Thanks, ///Marshall for dyno'd along for reference.

Recalled from Feb.9, I was 15hp lower and now I only 6hp lower after ESS ecu. I could easily see around 8hp and 30ft-lb gain from ecu itself, but I'm sure ///Marshall will counter back with race gas issue. Unknow on how much race gas affect hp/tq, but last saturday when he got 427 with 91octane, I gain ground on him by 8 hp from ESS tune? or from race-gas mixture? How about 30ft-lb I gain on him, can those be discredited by race-gas? I doubt it.

Enough said with dyno number, now, my personal assessment on ESS tune.
ESS tune definitely optimized my car to run more efficient and synchronized all my mods to run properly. My throttle response is much better with no lagging on downshifting. I might not be about to feel 8hp gain, but 30ft-lb, i definitely feel along with throttle response remapped, I definitely feel the car pull stronger and more responsive. If you recalled on my old thread, I always complain about lagging on downshifting, but with ESS tuned, it's more instant. It raised the limiter to 8500rpm and I'm very sure that it removed government limit:hihi:.

It would be nice if someone can do pre/post ecu tune in stock form (no other mods). I think part of my low hp reading has to do with my stock ecu and all my mods not being on the same page. I strongly believe that you need ecu on top of your mods especially mods that involved exhaust manifold. I don't believe ecu alone can give you a big hp gain, but I have to say that I'm impress with ESS tune on my torque curve. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I see 30ft-lb gain:eek:oohhh:. And if we can rely on x-axis(rpm), I saw my peak torque at lower RPM, but not sure about how accurate the rpm axis is.

I didn't post a/f ratio, but it run around 12 and ///Marshall was at around 12.8. Would I gain more power if I run 12.5-12.8? Mine is slightly on rich side but i can see the temp now at 210F instead of couple ticks north of 210F.

Fire away your questions, critics, opinion, guys:applause:
 

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interesting.....thanks
 

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Just presenting you with what I'm grappling with. Warning, this is
kinda long but does show the uncertainties involved.

What we know is that zzyx and myself have posted similar numbers
on the dynojet at SP Engineering:

Peak numbers:

///Marshall - 466.6hp/347.0tq (12/15/07)
zzyzx - 465.3hp/348.4tq (2/05/08)

Our RPi dynos are similar as well (latest dynos
prior to the RPi dyno challenge):

Peak numbers:

///Marshall - 433.9hp/316tq (1/10/08)
zzyzx - 436.2hp/325tq (2/05/08)?

Note that we NEVER dynoed on the same day prior to the RPi
dynoday shootout. Also see that zzyzx's numbers are higher than
mine and particularly higher in the low-mid range. Seems like this
is a result of Supersprint vs Evosport headers...but that's for
another thread.

Since then zzyxz, keang24, and myself dynoed on the same day at
the RPi dyno challenge (2/9/08).

Peak numbers:

///Marshall - 420.2hp/305tq (2/09/08)
zzyzx - 419.2hp/320tq (2/09/08)
keang24 - 406.5hp/280tq (2/09/08)

Now here's where things get confusing and we need zzyzx to verify
a few of my assumptions.

On the dynoday challenge at RPi (2/09/08) it's my understanding
that zzyzx was running with a different exhaust system. He
swapped out his Supersprint for Dixis with an H-pipe. Vic,
did your dyno runs listed above include the Dixis exhaust?
On 2/09/08 I was running higher octane gas mixed to 97 octane.
I was running on higher octane gas for about 2 days prior to
the challenge. All else was the same.

So here's the questions you have to ask yourself. Did the Dixis
with h-pipe increase zzyzx's power from his previous runs (assuming
his previous runs were not with the Dixis setup)? Did the
exhaust reduce zzyzx's power? Did the race gas increase my
dyno numbers? Did the high octane gas hurt my numbers?

Remember that you need to be careful about reading into
zzyzx's and my numbers pre RPi dyno shootout as we never
ran on the same day until 2/09/08.

So Kenny and I ran our cars yesterday at RPi @ 4pm. The results
were:

///Marshall - 427.0hp/311tq (2/16/08)
keang24 - 421.0hp/311tq (2/16/08)

This was the first time besides the dyno challenge
day (2/09/08) that we ran our cars on the same day.
I filled my tank up with 14 gallons of 91 octane gas
one day prior (2/15/08). This new tank now included
what was left from my dyno challenge gas (4 gallons)
plus 14 gallons of 91 octane gas. Does this mean
that my car's ECU was still wigging out on the higher
octane gas?

Remember that I am using peak numbers here. This isn't
exactly a good indication of who's car is stronger.
It was obvious from our dynoday numbers that zzyzx's
car was much stronger than mine in the low-mid range.
You can also see the peak torque was way better than
mine. Was this a result of the high octane gas?
The exhaust? Hard to say right now.

So here are the possible scenarios:

1) We can assume that zzyzx and my cars run about
the same regardless of exhaust changes or higher
octane gas. In this case on 2/09/08 Kenny was
14hp less than zzyzx and myself. On 2/16/08 Kenny
was 7 hp lower than me. Therefore the ESS software
gave Kenny a 7.7hp/25tq peak boost. I'm not sure about
the mid-range.

2) Given that I was running high octane gas and zzyzx
possibly had a different exhaust our previous dyno numbers
are meaningless in comparing our cars on the dynoday.
Even though the peak dynoday numbers are the same
It's conceivable that zzyzx's car was running stronger
and my car was artificially boosted by the gas. If
this is the case then the amount that the ESS software
boosted Kenny is unknown but less than 7.7hp/25tq.
(i.e. the dynoday difference of 13.7hp/25tq is inaccurate
due to gas).

The way I see it, the only way to know is to have
zzyzx vs keang24 on the same day with normal 91 octane
pump gas and same mods as 2/09/08 at RPi. Without this
data there are too many variables to come to any reasonable
conclusion about the ESS software.

Also realize that I'm only going by peak numbers
here. We aren't talking about the low to mid range
increases. If we agree that scenario 1 is correct
then computing deltas between Kenny and my dynographs
on 2/09/08 vs the deltas from 2/16/08 would show what
the ESS software is doing across the entire range.
I'm not going to waste my time doing this until
we know the data is good.

So my conclusion right now...inconclusive with regard
to power gains. Concerning drivability, see
Kenny's post on that. Is it better than other
available software? I'll let you be the judge
of that. Will I be switching my software? I'm going
to wait until we can do the zzyzx vs keang24
dyno challenge round 2. From there I will reevaluate
all the data and see if it's worth it for me.

 

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Nice work Kenny. Thank you for taking the time to do the leg work on testing the software. It looks like you picked up huge on the torque curve below 6k. I would think you would be able to feel that difference. Your torque curve is exactly like Mike Benvos to 6k and then it looks like the headers help a little. Comparing Marshall's torque curve with his Evo software also shows to be about the same as yours to around 6k. You have a slight improvement on the top end though.

So what I take out of this is, different software will give about the same improvement and aftermarket headers only give a 10hp/10tq maximum increase over stock above 6k. This is exactly what has been seen time and time again with other dynos and videos.
 

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...So what I take out of this is, different software will give about the same improvement and aftermarket headers only give a 10hp/10tq maximum increase over stock above 6k. This is exactly what has been seen time and time again with other dynos and videos.
I think that's a fair assessment.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Very good assessment. What I hope out of this effort with my Socal brotherhood help from ///Marhshall(role player), zzyzx(role player), RPI(assessor), and Mike Bentvo(provider) that fair and most accurate assessment for members here to get useful data and make a right decision out of this thread. BTW, I drove 900miles while stay within 100miles radius from my house in 3days. I'm sure my ecu will already adapt.:haha2:

The hp numbers are still inconclusive, but I'm very certain that 30ft-lb of torque gain is big enough and stand above the issue of race-gas mixture. Even with no gain on hp (worst case scenario), I'm very happy with how the car response. My speed limiter was removed, the rpm raised to 8500, now I know when ///Marshall mentioned that when you have aftermarket ecu, I can just floor in and shift without let go the gas pedal, it very smooth even at 8500rpm.

If you see something that need to be re-visit and re-verify, please let us know.

:cheers:

Nice work Kenny. Thank you for taking the time to do the leg work on testing the software. It looks like you picked up huge on the torque curve below 6k. I would think you would be able to feel that difference. Your torque curve is exactly like Mike Benvos to 6k and then it looks like the headers help a little. Comparing Marshall's torque curve with his Evo software also shows to be about the same as yours to around 6k. You have a slight improvement on the top end though.

So what I take out of this is, different software will give about the same improvement and aftermarket headers only give a 10hp/10tq maximum increase over stock above 6k. This is exactly what has been seen time and time again with other dynos and videos.
 

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That's a huge torque gain, and is due to the proprietary algorithm ESS uses for torque management. Anyway, I'd really like to see these cars shoot out on a dynojet.. There are way too many inconsistencies on the RPI dyno.

Kenny, Marshall, do you guys have the same gearing/tires?

Anyway, if anyone is interested in the software, you know where to find me.
 

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I forgot to add:

Since the ECU faults in Kenny's DME were NOT cleared prior to the dyno, it is quite possible that the car is changing to a different map to satisfy emissions requirements. (CEL on due to catalist efficiency, both banks.) We also don't know if there were further emissions related codes.

Kenny, autozone should be able to clear the codes for you, or I can do it with my scanners.

Then I think we should all go to a dyno jet, and dyno on the same day with the same gas etc...

Kenny, I think it would also be beneficial for you to post your AFR, as the dive after 7200rpm was corrected with the ESS software. There is no doubt in my mind that the car is much smoother and responsive, and I think at minimum you gained 10hp and 25ftlbs at the wheels which is an accomplishment with software.

Where there is a trade off between performance and reliability/driveability, ESS always picks the latter.
 

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That's a huge torque gain, and is due to the proprietary algorithm ESS uses for torque management. Anyway, I'd really like to see these cars shoot out on a dynojet.. There are way too many inconsistencies on the RPI dyno.

Kenny, Marshall, do you guys have the same gearing/tires?

Anyway, if anyone is interested in the software, you know where to find me.
We have different gearing (I'm at 3.91) and I'm running stock wheels
and tire size vs. Kenny's 20's. I'm not sure what his rolling diameter
is.

Don't get me wrong. I think Kenny has seen a big improvement over
his prior runs. A/Fs seem to be more consistent and drivability seems
to have improved. I'm just not ready to call it on power gains
just yet. I feel the jury is still out on that.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
OK, my rolling diameter is within 0% front and -0.45% rear.

Stock: 255/40/19 --> 27.03" and 285/35/19 --> 26.85"
Mine: 255/35/20 --> 27.03" and 285/30/20 --> 26.73"

Regarding my a/f ratio, the first ever dyno was dipped into 10-11 afr after 7200rpm, but most often time it so varied all over the places. I saw 13, 12.5, 12, 11, etc, but now with ESS tune, I'm very consistant at 12 (with at least 15 dyno pulled so far)

We have different gearing (I'm at 3.91) and I'm running stock wheels
and tire size vs. Kenny's 20's. I'm not sure what his rolling diameter
is.

Don't get me wrong. I think Kenny has seen a big improvement over
his prior runs. A/Fs seem to be more consistent and drivability seems
to have improved. I'm just not ready to call it on power gains
just yet. I feel the jury is still out on that.
 

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I do not want to throw a monkey wrench into this whole discussion but I have another issue to consider. Prior to the RPI shoot out dyno, Kenny did a dyno at 413? (i think, Kenny can confirm, hp and torque) before reinstalling his stock resonator and 2ndary cats. Basically he ran a straight pipe from headers back to muffler. The RPI shoot out dyno was his first dyno after that install.

Theorectically he should have picked up power after that since he increased some of his backpressure. The RPI shootout dyno was done in shoot out mode with another car setting the baseline. Unless you run that same car as a baseline in shootout mode then dyno Kenny's car you do not have apples to apples results. In other words, Kenny could very well have got 420 hp that day if he went first or did not dyno in shootout mode.

What makes matters more confusing is that the Day Kenny first did the dyno after the ESS install he did the same hp in shootout mode as he did in regular mode which was 420ish.

All in all we do not know if Kenny got the gains from reinstalling the stock resonator and cats or from the ESS software. Comparing the RPI shootout dyno at 406 and the dyno on Saturday at 420ish is not a good comparison.

Lastly, if Kenny did get an increase in power from the software alone, he should be putting down more power than Marshall or Victor who all have similar mods but are running Powerchip. If ESS puts down more power than Powerchip how come Kenny is not out performing them?

I am not saying that the ESS software does not work. I am just saying based on these results we cannot say for sure it works. They are inconclusive. No matter what, Kenny says the car feels better and drives better that does say alot.:applause:
 

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I just wanted to clarify something. There is NO gain or loss with the new software. Kenny's dyno prior to the software tune was 422whp. Comparing dyno numbers under shootout mode is not accurate as the numbers are based on the comparison of the cars participating in the shoot out. The software did, however improve drivability (throttle response, etc.)
 

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I just wanted to clarify something. There is NO gain or loss with the new software. Kenny's dyno prior to the software tune was 422whp. Comparing dyno numbers under shootout mode is not accurate as the numbers are based on the comparison of the cars participating in the shoot out. The software did, however improve drivability (throttle response, etc.)
To be specific what about torque Eloy, where there any torque gain? The prior dyno that shows 422 hp what was the torque on that? Was that before the add back of the section 1 and 2?

We all really appreciate everyone trying their best to make an assessment here since no one wants to buy something under false pretense.:M5thumbs:

I also must for Kenny's sake I really wanted him to get some serious gains from the software. He has put alot of time and money into his car he deserves some serious BANGGGGG for his buck.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I just wanted to clarify something. There is NO gain or loss with the new software. Kenny's dyno prior to the software tune was 422whp. Comparing dyno numbers under shootout mode is not accurate as the numbers are based on the comparison of the cars participating in the shoot out. The software did, however improve drivability (throttle response, etc.)
My 422whp was the highest recorded prior to dyno shoot out and it was with straight pipe. Isn't in shoot out mode each car hp number based off other cars. Just put race-gas issue on the side for now, my number and ///Marshall were relatively ~15hp different eventhough we both based off zzyzx's car. So, whenever me and ///Marshall dyno the car together, I will be always less by 15hp?
 

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To be specific what about torque Eloy, where there any torque gain? The prior dyno that shows 422 hp what was the torque on that? Was that before the add back of the section 1 and 2?

We all really appreciate everyone trying their best to make an assessment here since no one wants to buy something under false pretense.:M5thumbs:

I also must for Kenny's sake I really wanted him to get some serious gains from the software. He has put alot of time and money into his car he deserves some serious BANGGGGG for his buck.
+1 Thanks Kenny for being the first independent source of information
for this. At least it seems like the outcome is favorable for you for a
change.
 

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I do not want to throw a monkey wrench into this whole discussion but I have another issue to consider. Prior to the RPI shoot out dyno, Kenny did a dyno at 413? (i think, Kenny can confirm, hp and torque) before reinstalling his stock resonator and 2ndary cats. Basically he ran a straight pipe from headers back to muffler. The RPI shoot out dyno was his first dyno after that install.

Theorectically he should have picked up power after that since he increased some of his backpressure. The RPI shootout dyno was done in shoot out mode with another car setting the baseline. Unless you run that same car as a baseline in shootout mode then dyno Kenny's car you do not have apples to apples results. In other words, Kenny could very well have got 420 hp that day if he went first or did not dyno in shootout mode.

What makes matters more confusing is that the Day Kenny first did the dyno after the ESS install he did the same hp in shootout mode as he did in regular mode which was 420ish.

All in all we do not know if Kenny got the gains from reinstalling the stock resonator and cats or from the ESS software. Comparing the RPI shootout dyno at 406 and the dyno on Saturday at 420ish is not a good comparison.

Lastly, if Kenny did get an increase in power from the software alone, he should be putting down more power than Marshall or Victor who all have similar mods but are running Powerchip. If ESS puts down more power than Powerchip how come Kenny is not out performing them?

I am not saying that the ESS software does not work. I am just saying based on these results we cannot say for sure it works. They are inconclusive. No matter what, Kenny says the car feels better and drives better that does say alot.:applause:
Brad,

You are 100% correct. Adding back-pressure will gain a LOT of torque. We saw this in our testing. This is one reason we made our own full exhaust - to maximize gains and get the right sound, especially with the headers.

We have a DynoJet 248c - any takers!

thanks
Brad
 

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Sorry keang24 for posting this OT subject in your thread, but is zzyzx by chance named VICTOR? If so, he should be banned from the board for scamming other members and then changing his SN from VPOWER to zzyzx. I also confronted him awhile back concerning this issue and was told that he sold his M5 to another member which is completely BS:nono:

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Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I assume that both ratings
are concerning the same incident. Nowhere in this thread (or any
thread that I've interacted with him) did zzyzx appear and represent
himself in a deceitful manner. If you still feel wronged then please
take it up with him. I'm not interested in crucifying anyone on the
message boards and I'd hate to see this thread turn into a flame
fest.

With this said, I understand that you feel compelled to inform others
of your experience. We should all be cautious of people with whom our
only interaction comes from the internet.

Sorry keang24 for posting this OT subject in your thread, but is zzyzx by chance named VICTOR? If so, he should be banned from the board for scamming other members and then changing his SN from VPOWER to zzyzx. I also confronted him awhile back concerning this issue and was told that he sold his M5 to another member which is completely BS:nono:

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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td><table class="tborder" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td class="alt1">All Feedback Received</td><td class="alt1">From Buyers</td><td class="alt1">From Sellers</td><td class="alt1">From Trades</td><td class="alt1">Left for Others</td></tr></tbody></table></td><td align="right"><table class="tborder" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td class="alt2">Total Feedback Received By VPOWER </td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table><table class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="tcat">
</td><td class="tcat" width="100%">Rating Summary</td><td class="tcat">Options</td><td class="tcat">From</td><td class="tcat">Date</td></tr><tr><td class="alt1" align="center">
</td><td class="alt1" width="100%">He is full of BS </td><td class="alt1" align="center" nowrap="nowrap"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>
</td><td>
</td><td> </td></tr></tbody></table></td><td class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">Buyer JoeCaMotto (2) </td><td class="alt1" nowrap="nowrap">24th April 2007</td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" align="center">
</td><td class="alt2" width="100%">HE'S FULL OF BS!!! DON'T BOTHER WITH THIS GUY! </td><td class="alt2" align="center" nowrap="nowrap"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>
</td><td>
</td><td> </td></tr></tbody></table></td><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">Buyer 2ND2NO1 (1) </td><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap">23rd April 2007</td></tr></tbody></table>
 

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sorry if you had mentioned this before steve/marshall... but does how does the 3.91 diff contribute to your dyno results? is it a loss of torque up higher?
 

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sorry if you had mentioned this before steve/marshall... but does how does the 3.91 diff contribute to your dyno results? is it a loss of torque up higher?
Honestly I'm not exactly sure. I would think that the change in gearing
will affect the numbers if they aren't compensated for. I'm not sure
how you compensate for this. I remember reading KeithTa's experience
with dynoing. He seemed to indicate that it did affect the dyno numbers
and that they were lower. Unfortunately I never had a pre differential
dyno so I'll never know.

Edit: On a side note, whenever RPi dynos they always do a preliminary
run to "set the gearing". I'm not exactly sure what they mean or what
they are doing. Maybe Eloy can comment here.
 
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