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Well, I wasn't going to split hairs, but it looks like your calculations and observations have changed.
Nope, not a thing has changed. As always, the skill of the driver along with the precision of the start plays a huge role in acceleration runs that few understand. Hence the reason why a dragstrip xmas tree with staging lights along with strip timing will reveal the truth. I assume you're watching one video with unknown car mods and obviously unknown driver skill levels and then saying that overrides both instrumented tests along with physics models that confirms those tests? Facts are a stubborn thing, and it continues to be a sad condition that 6MT attacks using non-pure methods persist to this day here on the board. Find a poor driver, don't instrument the cars, post a video, declare a "fact" which in reality has no basis.
 

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SMG v 6MT

0 to 145 at SS.

Video from the SMG. SMG was behind the 6MT after 1st gear. SMG has Evolve Stage 3 tune. 6MT has Dinan Stage 1 tune. I was driving the 6MT.

6MT with Dinan Stage 1 tune beats SMG with Evolve Stage 3 tune.

My point: on paper, I should be slower, with a 6MT and the weaker Dinan tune. The SMG will make the CAR faster, but may not may make the DRIVER any faster.

Don't get me wrong. I like flappy paddles; I have them in my quattro at the track. But I love an underdog, which is a 6mt.

http://youtu.be/wY1SJ-AzFDg
 

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Looks good Woody! Love the sound of the S85s in battle!! What an engine. S85, S65, S62...never going to anything like them again from BMW.

I guess I should have mentioned in my post above that my comments on DSC not intervening are moot since long after what Texasgrego quoted from a Cartest sim run I posted, BMWNA released the updated s/w to allow DSC off in 6MT cars (09/2007 thereabouts).

It's an interesting psychological phenomenon that, for whatever reason(s), there is a continued move in numerous forums to denigrate manual transmissions versus SMG/DCT/PDK/DSG/whathaveyou. I had a talk a couple of years ago with a marketing guy at one of the large German automakers about the issue, and that person's take was from his experience the most visceral proponents of the automated manuals come from those who can't drive a manual, either at all (most of the market now, especially those under 40) or not very well. He said they take advantage of that by marketing "it's faster" over and over again and trying to connect "it's faster" and "it has 'paddle shifters'" with a "race driver." The quicker they can move the mass market to one platform, the lower their net manufacturing/warranty/et al costs will be, so most all are focused on forcing the market to automated transmission cars (especially since when they take away control of the clutch, they can now fully control emissions and mileage tests). Of course, he readily agreed with the thought that most of these "it's faster" arguments are pretty much a moot point on the street as instrumented tests all show (i.e. would you like jail time speed in 7.0 seconds or 7.2 seconds sir?).

A modern example is the F80 M3. Using C&D's instrumented test comparison, DCT 1/4 is [email protected] and 6MT [email protected] The advantage is 0.3 seconds after 1/4 mile of WOT running. The marketing machine referred to above hammers that point over and over to upsell DCT (costs $2900 more) to those that are 6MT able, and of course to make those who can't drive a manual "feel better" about the car.

The net of it is that both cars are damn fun to drive, and DCT is a huge, massive improvement over SMG. If I was going to run One Lap or America (in the plan) or similar, I'd prefer to go for the DCT even with its 55lb penalty since on a road course it's wonderful (as long as left-foot braking and throttle at the same time are allowed...some automated platforms kill that ability). In daily driving, 6MT all the way.

Regards,
Chuck
 

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Best to compare both stock cars with same driver and state which is quicker, this has been done plenty of times in videos from car blogs, not sure what all the discussion is here.
 

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LMAO

Do not worry, the Troll council has initiated disciplinary action against me for joining the "Owners who street race for a living and appear on the M5 Board to denigrate 6mt owners' .


In case you are not laughing with the rest of us, the vid and the post quote from a DECADE ago were posted in jest (notice the Viking lady poking with the sword).

If I were to look on this thread as an outsider(I'm sorry I did at this point), I would see that the 6mt is way more fun and just as fast as the completely unreliable SMG.
This is not reality for most people.

So if you want to be all SERIOUS and chit, don't be talking theory when we've had a (did I mention decade) a good bit of real world under our belts.

This is a quote from post #75 which preceded the tirade of the SMG being the worst car ever. :byee55amg


"I am not Really gonna claim to be faster than any 6mt... LOL

Just don't want you guys scaring off new members from the SMG, especially now that we have @jcolley on line.

Most of the guys that buy these cars are interested in roll racing to some extent.
It takes a great driving, upgraded diff and shifter modification for the 6mt to be competitive for most owners. "
 

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Basically everything just said echos what I've been saying too. Hence my comments pointing to people who won't look at the facts that we've had almost a decade to experience. Facts come from instrumented tests properly conducted. From everything I've seen, those tests completely agree with the physics models. I've never once said the 6MT was faster -- but that is the strawman thrown up every time anyone simply points out the facts and data. I assume that is a continual issue for some people exactly for the reason that marketing guy referred to above stated. For some people "being faster" by 0.3 seconds in the 1/4 mile is apparently extremely important even though they never actually use the car in that manner.

Once again, facts are a stubborn thing. If you instrument the two cars and do your best to eliminate the driver component, you arrive at the actual data -- which is lines up closely with the models; SMG is faster over most all speed increments but there are some speed increments, due to gearing, where the 6MT has the advantage just like any two otherwise identical cars with different gearing. There is a give and take nature when you overlay the two curves. As Woody has shown, a very competent manual driver does have the advantage at the start since 1st is geared shorter in the 6MT slightly but also since you have control over the clutch which essential to launch the car properly -- by very competent I mean what I suppose many would consider a "professional driver".
 

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As Woody has shown, a very competent manual driver does have the advantage at the start since 1st is geared shorter in the 6MT slightly but also since you have control over the clutch which essential to launch the car properly -- by very competent I mean what I suppose many would consider a "professional driver".
Chuck,

To be accurate, I think my 3.91 diff made all the difference. Yes, it's a mod -- and this thread is about 6MT mods.

As a fairly competent driver, I know I would be faster in a SMG/DCT/automatic -- that's a different kind of fun. For me, I'd rather be a faster driver than have a faster car.

My onboard video of the same race that I've posted before. You can hear my "slow" shifts.
https://vimeo.com/110043439
 

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Chuck,

To be accurate, I think my 3.91 diff made all the difference. Yes, it's a mod -- and this thread is about 6MT mods.

As a fairly competent driver, I know I would be faster in a SMG/DCT/automatic -- that's a different kind of fun. For me, I'd rather be a faster driver than have a faster car.

My onboard video of the same race that I've posted before. You can hear my "slow" shifts.
https://vimeo.com/110043439
Did you have an external mic for this pull? Sounds sick!
 

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Did you have an external mic for this pull? Sounds sick!


Yes. I ran an external mic out the trunk and had it taped to the rear tail light.
 

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Yes. I ran an external mic out the trunk and had it taped to the rear tail light.
Awesome, trying to get ideas of placement for when I run mine. thx
 

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Chuck,

To be accurate, I think my 3.91 diff made all the difference. Yes, it's a mod -- and this thread is about 6MT mods.

As a fairly competent driver, I know I would be faster in a SMG/DCT/automatic -- that's a different kind of fun. For me, I'd rather be a faster driver than have a faster car.

My onboard video of the same race that I've posted before. You can hear my "slow" shifts.
What, no foot to the floor speed shifting for you? Getting soft as you age Woody? :biggrinbounce: Speaking of which, I assume the E60 M5 clutch is a lot better at handling high thermal loads, aka abuse, than the E39. I know the E90 M3 clutch sure is one tough setup, so I assume the E60 is also. This comes full circle back to why at the PC they only have DCT M-cars now since their experience in the old days with the E39 M5 when many students would destroy the clutch quickly through lack of skill. A '68 GTO with a Muncie rock crusher and huge 11" clutch it isn't.
 

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Surprised no one mentioned a clutch stop to reduce the travel of the clutch pedal.

Had to make my own but it worked well. Feels way better

 

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I would have to say you're not overheating the transmission due to being catless. The radiant heat from the cats during a track session I'm sure is immense and causes a substantial increase in transmission temperature. I wrapped the exhaust from the cats to the resonator assembly but still had issues.

I just replaced my transmission fluid for the first time two days ago (used OEM 75w90) and the difference was quite noticeable. Smoother shifting without doubt.

I need to go catless!
 

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Redline ShockProof Lightweight 75w140 is what I use in my transmission and diff.

Again, no issues of overheating the 6MT.
 

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Redline ShockProof Lightweight 75w140 is what I use in my transmission and diff.

Again, no issues of overheating the 6MT.
I would have to give this a try..
 

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Gentlemen, what are our clutch options? I'm closing in on 83k and I'm thinking about taking care of the clutch preventively, I've searched online but only see aftermarket/performance clutches for SMG cars.
 
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