BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

1 - 20 of 140 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Starting a thread after this conversation hijacked another thread.

This is simple. I love my 6-speed equipped E60 M5 and this thread is for others who feel the same.

Like most 6-speed owners I wanted the manual regardless of its shortcomings and searched long and hard for a fine example.

THIS THREAD IS NOT MEANT TO COMPARE SMG VS. 6-SPEED. This has been done and I concur the SMG is faster 0-100. You win.

The 6-speed is still a brilliant & rare car that should have been designed and built from the inception of the E60 M5 rather than as an afterthought. BMW should have remapped the engine to produce power at a slightly lower RPM, but they didn't. I think the car should have a shorter Diff gear but it doesn't.

Let's discuss some strategies to improve the 6-speed M5 to give it the respect it deserves rather than some inferior step brother.

Motor Trend Beat up the M5 vs the CTS-V HERE and HERE and HERE Plenty of magazines neutered the Manual M5 with it's release and inability to disactivate the DSC. We all know that was fixed with a software update.

The shortcomings as I see them are the drop in revs between shifts. We need to find a way to widen the torque curve or increase the Redline. I for one dont want to spin past the 8200 redline so I'm curious if there is a 6-speed specific software update that would help with lowering the torque peak to say to 5800 instead of 6200. (earlier VANOS activation?)

My only upgrade is the Dinan mufflers.

The other upgrade I'm considering are:

UCC SHORT SHIFT KIT or the z3 1.9L shifter and Dinan 3.91 diff. Suggest BELOW<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title -->Pulley set to increase torque.

BMW Motor sport Ring and Pinion 3.93 or 4.10

Dinan S2 or S3 suspension kit (I hear it adds 600 hp or 900hp with the Dinan Badge attached)



The posts below are from the mentioned thread

Agreed. Full speed acceleration of the SMG is stupid fast and incredible.

But, I may be the only person in the world that drives his car at speeds other than at FULL TILT. I just couldn't see living with the day to day driving of the SMG and I actually enjoy driving a manual car. Again this was a borrowed car not my car so I didnt live with the SMG more than 24 hours at a time and based my desision on this experience.

The manual will drop slightly out of the power band when shifting BUT with 500hp I am PERSONALLY happy with the performance. I love taking people for rides and hearing them sequel like a girl when the tach swings past 6,000. Second and third and the beginning of 4th gear pull equally hard. Fifth and sixth are for men with bigger balls and a better lawyer than me.

I'm not trying to start a my car is better than yours but I'm simply giving a :thumbsup: for the Manual which I think gets a bad rap from SMG owners.

Yes, the SMG is faster but for those who enjoying rowing the M5 6 Speed is a fantastic car.:M5launch:

Best reason to own a manual. My wife can't drive a manual car so she never gets blamed if something happens. (rock chip, curb rash) Happy wife, happy life.

---------------------------------------
LOL @ better lawyer than me comment haha!

What I put in bold is what just kills the manual for me. The gearing drops out of powerband... :(

I'm a hardcore manual guy.. all my cars have been stick.. and I will always choose stick. Just not in this car.

I would even take E90/92 M3 in manual over DCT. Sure the gearing is better in DCT but the car wasn't designed for that type of tranny like the M5 was for SMG<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message -->
-------------------------------------------
ow that I think of it....

Getting a manual M5, installing 3.91 diff and a tune to raise the rev limiter would make the car more 'alive' so to speak. It wouldn't fall out of powerband after shifts and would have the short gearing similar to the SMG !

Hmmmm... guess I would just have to drive one and see the difference.
-------------------------------------------
On an all out launch and race to 100mph, the difference between the SMG and 6spd is very slight with a decent driver in both cars. You might lose 0.1 sec per shift, but you can modulate the launch much more accurately in the 6spd (i.e. begin engagement, create that initial weight transfer and then go for it -- all done very quickly but accurately). The 6spd is well matched to the engine, and when you look at actual performance, the difference up to jail-time-speed is at best 0.2 seconds. This of course assumes you have the s/w update applied to the early 6spd models (2007 and 2008 up to mid-summer 2007 production) to allow DSC off. The early tests done by car mags were with DSC stuck on and therefore the car limited the launch and limited fast, full throttle shifts too. Uninhibited, the two cars are extremely close, and in fact very few SMG drivers can properly launch the car to obtain sub 2.0 60' times. The car is anything but a "barge" with the 6spd -- those comments are usually said by those who have not actually driven a 6spd E60 M5 in anger. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,529 Posts
As I mentioned in the other thread, with two well-driven identical stock E60 M5s, one SMG, one 6MT, the 6MT car will only be fractionally slower than the SMG car. In fact, when you look at interval speeds, the 6MT car is in fact quicker to some of them than the SMG car (i.e. the first speed interval just above the SMG 1-2 shift for example). The 6MT can be launched much easier and more accurately, so in many cases if you were going to have a drag race from a dig against the SMG car, you will likely win if you are a good stick driver up to jail-legal speeds (unless of course you are going up against someone with the SMG who has spent considerable time at the strip perfecting the jab-release some-modulate throttle launch you need in S6 to get a good 60' time -- that doesn't come easy to those without practice at it). Two perfectly driven examples will be about 0.3 seconds apart at the end of the quarter mile. Doesn't seem like a huge deal to me given how much fun and involving stick driving is. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,879 Posts
I would definitely go for a tune first and see how you like it. I tried the dealer installed tune but eventually upgraded to Evolve for a tremendous difference. My car revs to 9,000 rpms and it is so much quicker, and smoother. I've the SMG but predict similar results for your purposes. Others claim the Sprint booster to be a very worthwhile enhancement as it modifies the drive-by-wire electronics to make the off-the-line response quicker.
The 3.91 gearing is a little more controversial from what I've read, but some say you canpick up 2/10's time in the quarter there...wheelspin and launch is a problem though...

I recommend the tune first, and of course, high octane race gas for ultimate performance!
Bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,085 Posts
My best mod for my 6MT was a z3 1.9L shifter and Dinan 3.91 diff.

I did not see what was mentioned in the other thread, but have you considered the stock shifter from a z3 1.9L?

It's a stock BMW part and transforms the character of the car. I've posted it before, but I have the same shifter in my e28 m5, e39 m5, and e60 m5. The shifter was the first thing I did when I picked up the e60. The previous owner had the Dinan short shifter in, but it still felt like I was rowing the boat. I couldn't wait to swap out the z3 shifter. Night and Day.

Part number 25 11 7 527 252 and only $66.20 on realoem.com

RealOEM.com * BMW Z3 Z3 1.9 Gearbox shifting part

I also have the Dinan 3.91 diff, which help drop the revs into the powerband after the shift. Wheelspin can be an issue, but can be fixed with a driver mod ;) or I can remove my "extra 600 hp" Dinan badge as well.

I'm seriously considering the Sprint Booster, with all the positive reviews, but just haven't pulled the trigger. I think it will help with the throttle response with my Dinan tune, for quicker heel and toe work. My e39 has an Active tune, with instant throttle response in sport mode, and seems to rev much faster than my e60. I'm hoping the Sprint Booster will help the throttle response.

The only other mod I'm debating is finding some lightweight 19" wheels. I think the 20s look nice, but the 19s are faster.

I also came to the realization that my lap times will never catch Michael Schumacher on his worst day; no SMG/DCT can help me in that respect. No doubt, the SMG is awesome for track work, but my e60 spends a greater percent of time on the street v. the track. I know my 6 speed may be slower, but I'm not on the track every day. I also know that it's impossible for my 6 speed to get the Red Cog of Death -- the transmission may overheat on a hot track day, but no RCoD.

~Woody
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,332 Posts
Was always against the 6 speed mated to the S85. Mainly due to gearing and the fact that the car was designed around SMG.

But came to realize the 6 speed can be modified to take advantage of the high powerband.

Dinan 3.91 diff
Tune to raise that rev limiter
Short shifter

Voila ! I'm a 6 speed guy, love rowing my own gears.. nothing matches the feeling. We have an SMG M5, but if I were to do it again I would get the 6 speed.

SMG problems just aren't worth the advantages and the money spent on a new clutch can buy you shorter gearing and a tune!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,332 Posts
And of course you can slap a differential and tune on the SMG equipped car and it'll will be faster...

But the 6 speed will always be more fun
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
And of course you can slap a differential and tune on the SMG equipped car and it'll will be faster...

But the 6 speed will always be more fun
Is there anyone on the Board with a Diff swap in a 6-speed?

Thought this thread would have gotten more attention. How many 60 M5 6-speeds on M5 board?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,085 Posts
I've got the Dinan 3.91 diff and raised rev limiter, but I can't comment on 3.93 or 4.10.

The 3.91 really does help on the low end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I've got the Dinan 3.91 diff and raised rev limiter, but I can't comment on 3.93 or 4.10.

The 3.91 really does help on the low end.
When you shift at redline, where do you RPMs fall to in each gear?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
267 Posts
Is there anyone on the Board with a Diff swap in a 6-speed?

Thought this thread would have gotten more attention. How many 60 M5 6-speeds on M5 board?
I have one. I pretty much have left it stock. It is fast enough for me that way. ;) Besides I can quench my thirst for intense no holds
barred speed with my 2 bikes. I have a Kawasaki ZX14 and a ZX10. Now there is NOTHING like the rush of a 1400cc or 1000c bike when you unleash it. My M5 is my "slow" vehicle :M5launch::hihi:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,085 Posts
I knew you would ask...

When you shift at redline, where do you RPMs fall to in each gear?
I knew you would ask...I literally just drove around my neighborhood to check...too many cops around Huntington Beach to do any redline shifts.

When I shift at 6000, it drops to 4000. I've got to make a drive down to San Diego later today, so I'll be able to check redline shifts when I get on the freeway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,085 Posts
Redline shifts

Yup, shifting at 8000, my revs drop by 2000, to 6000. With the 3.91, I'm loosing 2000 rpm at every shift.

7000 to 5000.mov - YouTube

I happened to have my rePlayXD 1080 camera in the car, but no charger and not too much battery life. I only caught a 7000 to 5000 shift; my battery died before I could find enough space on the freeway to redline 3rd gear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Yup, shifting at 8000, my revs drop by 2000, to 6000. With the 3.91, I'm loosing 2000 rpm at every shift.

7000 to 5000.mov - YouTube

I happened to have my rePlayXD 1080 camera in the car, but no charger and not too much battery life. I only caught a 7000 to 5000 shift; my battery died before I could find enough space on the freeway to redline 3rd gear.
I like that camera angle. I'll try that tonight with stock gearing. to get shift points and drops in rpm.

My dad lives in Fountain Valley so I know what you mean about traffic and police in that area.

PLEASE SOMEONE correct me if I'm wrong but the rear gear should not affect the drop in RPMs between shifts, it will rev faster but the rpms will still drop the same amount.
In order to affect the RPM drop you would have to change the gear ratios in the transmission WHICH is why the SMG has the advantage.

The strategy mentioned previously is to raise the Redline so that you can shift at a higher RPM and when it does drop if falls to the Maximum Torque peak of about 6200 rpms.

I figure I lose about 2400 rpms at shift 8200 to 5800 in a 1st to 2nd shift. Each gear will be different based on the ratios of the transmission. Anyone have firm data/numbers on this?
ANT.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
PLEASE SOMEONE correct me if I'm wrong but the rear gear should not affect the drop in RPMs between shifts, it will rev faster but the rpms will still drop the same amount.
In order to affect the RPM drop you would have to change the gear ratios in the transmission WHICH is why the SMG has the advantage.

ANT.
True without changing the ratios in the transmission the RPMs will drop at the same ratio, but they will be a higher RPM with each shift than a stock vehicle. With the thought that with a higher rear gear the car will stay closer to the power band like the SMG cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
591 Posts
Glad someone finally started a thread for us 6 speed owners!! :)

I own a 6mt and love it. I've got the JAWS Alpha-N setup seen here: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/199749-jaws-motorsport-alpha-n-full-review.html

With that tune I occasionally have serious traction issues in 2nd gear, to the point where in a straight line it blows up the rear tires and revs to the limiter when shifted hard from 1st to 2nd. With DSC off in M-Mode you better hold on when that happens :). Needless to say I'm doing 19" HRE's shortly with 275/305 Michelin PSS tires so hopefully my traction issues are fixed with that as it can be quite scary if you're not prepared for sliding around in a straight line at 50+ mph! Due to those current traction problems I'm not planning on doing a diff gearing change... Plus I don't want even higher cruising RPM than the car is currently geared for.

I installed the UUC SSK about 6 months ago and like it. It's slightly "notchier" than the stocker but the throws were reduced 1.5" when it's adjusted to be as short a height as possible. Note if you buy this shifter it will appear to be tilted toward 5th/6th gear when it neutral. This is because the stock shifter has a slight bend in it above the pivot ball (bent toward the drivers seat). The UUC shifter is machined straight. I just put it in the shop press and got it perfect, but some will not have that option and will have a "cocked" shifter so to speak.

I LOVE the 6mt, but if I shift really hard from 1st to 2nd at redline I get a loud noise through the shifter. It's not a grind, but a high pitched whirring noise that sounds like the synchro working very hard. Does anyone else ever get this? I'm not sure if it did it with the stock shifter or if it's because of the UUC. Or if my 2nd gear synchro is worn out. I'm the third owner so it very well could be an internal issue.

On the note of transmission internals, has anyone switched the trans fluid to something like royal purple or redline MT-90? I'm not sure what is acceptable. GL-4 or GL-5? All the dealer told me is that is is a synthetic fluid...

Nothing wrong with SMG, I test drove one and couldn't get over that my left foot was sad and wanting for a job to do... :( So I bought a 6 speed!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,529 Posts
In all BMW manual transmissions from 2006 onward, they spec BMW LT-3 fluid which is an ATF-like viscosity fluid and is of course "lifetime fill". :)

The Redline equivalent that Redline recommends is their D4 ATF. Stuff like Royal Purple equate to BMW LT-2 -- it will likely work fine imo however.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
As mentioned above, I replaced my manual trans and rear diff to redline fluids, which corrected the odd whine coming from the rear diff. In addition I have the Evolve R tune and the car has responded relatively well. Overall, mods for the 6speed would be the same as a SMG car. With that in mind durability in adding mods to a manual trans car is in your favor since the failure rate appears to be substantially less.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,085 Posts
Now, if we could only find a transmission cooler, then life would be grand for those occasional hot track days.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,276 Posts
Now, if we could only find a transmission cooler, then life would be grand for those occasional hot track days.

Or find a way to turn off that overtly sensitive sensor.. I doubt the trans will blow up even with high temps. Trans is built to withstand much more than we throw at it.. Little annoying to see temps creeping up even during spirited driving. For me decision to go 6sp was a no-brainer since i same from E39. No doubt in my mind s85 V10 is a masterpiece of engineering either 6sp or SMG..

My next mod is going to be wider stance 265 or 275 front and 295 or 305 rear.. with BBS 19s or something else.. PSS all the way
 
1 - 20 of 140 Posts
Top