[Suprazed]

Hello all.
Just wanted to say hi and make my first post as I'm hoping to get into one of these beasts soon.
I've been following this forum for over a year and have learned plenty about the e60 M5 (and I still want one)!

Im in a position where I can potentially buy a pre LCI car with sub 60k miles or an LCI car with around 75k miles.

So my question is, which would be preferred option if both cars had been treated equally well and had good records?

I wont be getting a warranty but will have a slush fund of around £5k ($7-8k I think).
Pros for pre LCI;
Lower miles
Less worn parts

Pros for LCI
Updated rod bearing design (I think)
Improved vanos design
dual oil drain plugs
Udated interior design
LCI lights
Updated software ?
BUT-Higher mileage, I'm aware that the cylinders have a tendency to taper with mileage and so could not be easily rectified.

Finally, I'm a very hands-owner and would do whatever possible myself, (I'm not a mechanic though). I've previously owned a mkIV supratt, rx-7 fd and an e46 m3 among others and installed many mods myself on all of them.

Anyway, sorry for the long initial post, I look forward to your views.

Zia

 

[DaveW68]

06 & 07 are both pre LCI. No changes in VANOS or rod bearing design for all E60 M5's from 2005-2010. All of them are subject to the same issues depending on how well they were cared for and how they've been driven. Software can and should be updated for all model years whenever possible. IMO, a low mileage older car is ALWAYS better than a higher mileage newer car if both cars have proper maintenance records, even if the newer car is 2008+ (LCI). Of course, proper maintenance records are a must and some sort of history of how the car was driven is a huge plus. Tracked cars can be scary to consider. I always stay away from heavily modified cars as they can be a telltale sign of hard driving.

Welcome to the board! I hope you find your dream car.

 

[Donald-M5]

As Mentioned Above. Lower Mileage 06 W/ Service records sounds like a winner to me.

 

[LeeDan00]

without any hesitation, i wouldn't base everything on the year of the car or mileage. that's my first advise to you. secondly, i would only buy a car with maintenance records and if it passes a PPI with flying colors (or with very minor repairs needed). i would error on the side of caution and take even a higher mileage car with full history of maintenance than a car with lower mileage and previous owner trashed.

Dan

 

[Suprazed]

Ahaa, I guess I have more reading to do then, I assumed cars with the redesigned door cars and dash etc were LCI.
I recall seeing someone mention that cars with a build date from Feb 2007 onwards were using a modified rod bearing design ( maybe in the big rod bearing thread, 37 pages and counting).
This fact alone was swaying me to only consider a Feb 2007+ car, subject to all the other usual checks of course.
Appreciate the feedback so far, many thanks.

 

[jcolley]

The only VANOS improvement worth deciding a purchase is that of the VANOS high pressure pump. The discharge line is prone to failure on all years and a non-factor. The pump's drive gearing was changed in 12/05, but likely production continued using old stock until 3/06 or 4/06 or so. Many early build (including mine) survived to very high mileage with no issue, but the drive gear failure can be catastrophic.

If you're willing to buy any S85 car, be prepared to change the rod bearings during ownership. Not that they will fail, but an ounce of prevention...

If you change the rod bearings, swap the pump will the oil pan is off if you have the old style. Then the engine becomes a non-worry factor in enjoying the car.

There were no rod bearings coming out of any production (installed in a car) S85 engine that have been verified to be of the new part number (with increased clearance).

 

[Suprazed]

Thanks jcolley, as I mentioned in my original post, I have been reading posts on here for about a year and I enjoy reading yours I particular as they always show that there is light at the end of the tunnel, even when the subject of the thread may be some sort of catastrophic failure that someone has experienced.

If you were to buy a car with say 50k miles on the clock would you change the rod bearings pretty much straight away or would you be quite confident for another 10k or so. Also, does anyone know of a service similar to the blackstone oil analysis for us UK based members? This seems like a good diagnostic but I don't think getting your oil analysed is common practice here.

 

[MarkieM5]

The only VANOS improvement worth deciding a purchase is that of the VANOS high pressure pump. The discharge line is prone to failure on all years and a non-factor. The pump's drive gearing was changed in 12/05, but likely production continued using old stock until 3/06 or 4/06 or so. Many early build (including mine) survived to very high mileage with no issue, but the drive gear failure can be catastrophic.

If you're willing to buy any S85 car, be prepared to change the rod bearings during ownership. Not that they will fail, but an ounce of prevention...

If you change the rod bearings, swap the pump will the oil pan is off if you have the old style. Then the engine becomes a non-worry factor in enjoying the car.

There were no rod bearings coming out of any production (installed in a car) S85 engine that have been verified to be of the new part number (with increased clearance).

Does anyone know why the pump gearing was changed? I followed your thread closely when you did rod bearings and new pump upgrade but don't remember any discussion about why BMW changed the pump. Considering this was done early in production, I would think they had a pretty good reason.


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[DaveW68]

Thanks jcolley, as I mentioned in my original post, I have been reading posts on here for about a year and I enjoy reading yours I particular as they always show that there is light at the end of the tunnel, even when the subject of the thread may be some sort of catastrophic failure that someone has experienced.

If you were to buy a car with say 50k miles on the clock would you change the rod bearings pretty much straight away or would you be quite confident for another 10k or so. Also, does anyone know of a service similar to the blackstone oil analysis for us UK based members? This seems like a good diagnostic but I don't think getting your oil analysed is common practice here.

Absolutely not! I believe many members here are freaked out by a few cases of worn bearings. It "might" have worn bearings if the car was tracked often, the oil wasn't changed often enough (should be every 7500 miles, not the 15k the manual calls for), or driven hard often before being fully warmed up. Most cars will go well over 100k without the bearings being worn out if the car was well maintained and not subject to the above mentioned abuses.

 

[Clyde]

Ahaa, I guess I have more reading to do then, I assumed cars with the redesigned door cars and dash etc were LCI...

The E60 LCI was in early 2007 (around March) and are MY2008 in the US, perhaps those early LCI cars are MY2007 in the UK :lightbulb:

 

[jcolley]

Does anyone know why the pump gearing was changed? I followed your thread closely when you did rod bearings and new pump upgrade but don't remember any discussion about why BMW changed the pump. Considering this was done early in production, I would think they had a pretty good reason.


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The early pump failures were apparently due to tooth shear. The newer style pump has a taller gear profile which increases both the addendum and dedendum of the tooth, thereby increasing the tooth's load capability.

 

[mdyaman]

Neither. And US 2007 models are not LCI.

Keep looking and get an 08+ model year.




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[DaveW68]

Neither. And US 2007 models are not LCI.

Keep looking and get an 08+ model year.

Why exactly? I'd much rather have a 35k mile '06 than a 60k+ mile '08 for the same kind of money. The supposed benefits of LCI are wayyy overblown in my humble opinion. I also think the interior (especially the doors) is better laid out and better looking in the pre-LCI models.

 

[Suprazed]

The E60 LCI was in early 2007 (around March) and are MY2008 in the US, perhaps those early LCI cars are MY2007 in the UK :lightbulb:

Yes, I think that might be the case.
Almost all the 2007 registered cars in the uk seem to have the updated features that I would have associated with LCI.
Ideally I'd prefer an LCI but I certainly won't dismiss an earlier car, in fact I spotted an 06 with under 40k miles and dealer service history which is very tempting at £16k (about $25k).
I'll continue the search as well as reading up on here.
Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[DaveW68]

Yes, I think that might be the case.
Almost all the 2007 registered cars in the uk seem to have the updated features that I would have associated with LCI.
Ideally I'd prefer an LCI but I certainly won't dismiss an earlier car, in fact I spotted an 06 with under 40k miles and dealer service history which is very tempting at £16k (about $25k).
I'll continue the search as well as reading up on here.
Thanks again for the feedback.

The guys in the US would be j*zzing in their pants to get a hold of an '06 with under 40k for $25k....especially if it's not a wrecked car and has a clean title & history.

 

[Suprazed]

The guys in the US would be j*zzing in their pants to get a hold of an '06 with under 40k for $25k....especially if it's not a wrecked car and has a clean title & history.

Haha, it's a pretty good price even for here, the car is actually in Scotland which is over a 600 mile round trip even from the north of England where I'm based. Most people in the UK wouldn't travel more than 40-50 miles to buy a car here!

What would you expect to pay for such a car in the US?

Cheers:thumbsup:

 

[DaveW68]

Haha, it's a pretty good price even for here, the car is actually in Scotland which is over a 600 mile round trip even from the north of England where I'm based. Most people in the UK wouldn't travel more than 40-50 miles to buy a car here!

What would you expect to pay for such a car in the US?

Cheers:thumbsup:

A loaded example in very good condition with full maintenance with just under 40k miles can be negotiated to about $30k at a dealer, perhaps a bit less.

On this forum, expect owners to ask for $35-45k as many think theirs are better than anything at any dealership. hiha

 

[Slippery]

Try to find one thats had the clutch & flywheel replaced. Mine is an 06 plate and required clutch,flywheel,CPS sensor at 39,000 miles due to red cog of death. Before my ownership & done under warranty.

Simon.

 

[Steveb34]

go for the history!

hello there
Id go with the lower mileage car any day!
i have a per-LCI and my mate has an LCI model. yes theres some internal trim bits and the external lights are different, but 98% of the car is identical!
make sure its got history, and if its had the oil done between service intervals thats a bonus
main thing is make sure its had a clutch, or budget for one (i can get a clutch for 400 and labour will be about 200, so not a scary price anyway!, then another 400 if it need flywheel too.

i LOVE my car and everyone who gets in it is shocked, they are damn awesome, so go for it!
as for a warranty, GET ONE!!!!!
DO NOT buy a car and not get a warranty with it!
the BMW one coveres everything, but is 100 a month minimum!
the warranty i have is an autoguard one, cost me £800 and it covers claims unto 1000 at a time up to the total of the car, for as long as i own the car!! never a penny to pay each year, its a single ONE OFF payment. I've had 2k out of it so far!!
PM me if you want any more info.

 

[Suprazed]

hello there
Id go with the lower mileage car any day!
i have a per-LCI and my mate has an LCI model. yes theres some internal trim bits and the external lights are different, but 98% of the car is identical!
make sure its got history, and if its had the oil done between service intervals thats a bonus
main thing is make sure its had a clutch, or budget for one (i can get a clutch for 400 and labour will be about 200, so not a scary price anyway!, then another 400 if it need flywheel too.

i LOVE my car and everyone who gets in it is shocked, they are damn awesome, so go for it!
as for a warranty, GET ONE!!!!!
DO NOT buy a car and not get a warranty with it!
the BMW one coveres everything, but is 100 a month minimum!
the warranty i have is an autoguard one, cost me £800 and it covers claims unto 1000 at a time up to the total of the car, for as long as i own the car!! never a penny to pay each year, its a single ONE OFF payment. I've had 2k out of it so far!!
PM me if you want any more info.

Thanks Steve, the prices you mentioned for the clutch and flywheel are awesome, I remember paying about £1000 for clutch and flywheel on my 6 speed supratt about 8 years ago.
I've pretty much decided I'm getting an M5 (was also considering b7 rs4 and merc c63), when I do I may contact you regarding the warranty.
Again, thanks for all the great feedback, I'd completely gone off the m5 for a while after reading about, rod bearings, injectors, vanos and tapering cylinders, but I think as long as I find a low mileage car thats clearly been looked after I should be ok (but I'll have a slush fund available anyway).:cheers: