BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

101 - 120 of 313 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,663 Posts
This helps me keep it all organized in one place.

Very preliminary, but this is solely the E9x side of things all in one place. Next sheet will be the E6x side with SMG. Third and final sheet will connect the two.

S85 DCT Wiring Table Prelim.png
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
225 Posts
I don't think emulation is necessary if this is attacked properly.

As jcolley said, the CAN-bus messages on the E60 and E90 are very similar (essentially the same). Where there may be a few differences are the messages coming out of the actual transmission module.

However, that might not matter. We know the MSS65 and MSS60 are built on essentially the same codebase, and that the MSS65 can actually be flashed with MSS60 code if desired. So there are probably two ways to tackle this:

1) The S85 software might already have a switch for DCT mode (if such a switch is indeed required). In this case all you'd have to do is flip that switch and probably tweak a few transmission related maps
2) If the S65 software is necessary, then you'd have to modify that to run in 10 cylinder mode and copy over all of the S85 maps (not impossible, but a bit of a pain in the *** since the DMEs are huge).

Either way would be better than emulating SMGIII. IMO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
665 Posts
Discussion Starter #106
We need to get our hands on a DCT mech module and get it on the bus with an e60 configuration and see what we have for faults......that will give us a huge amount of info on what electronic hurdles lie ahead. I have a bench setup with a gateway/cas which can be connected to anything with CAN inputs from BN2000. (Exx from 2000+)

Does anyone here have an M3 with DCT that is well seasoned with tool32 & NCS? We need to know the hex. diag address for DCT module. If it's different than SMG, we may have a problem and need to modify it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,663 Posts
Good question. I hadn't even considered that. Measured this morning and the SMG flywheel is about 35lbs. DCT flywheel is about 20 lbs.

I've always suspected the code loops which control throttle blips, rev matching, and torque matching on the SMG resided in the SMG module and not the DME software. Since it communicates to the DME an actual N-m torque value request, it seems logical that the DCT after conversion won't request some ridiculously (overly) aggressive throttle blip to match RPM since it would be set for DCT's lower flywheel weight.

A lightweight flywheel in the SMG would be...interesting though.

Verified bolt pattern, size, and diameter are identical between flywheels. Also verified starter ring tooth count, pitch, engagement ramps, and pitch diameter are identical. CPS teeth are identical.

The cranks on the S65 and S85 are internally balanced, so I don't expect anything unusual switching the flywheels from a running perspective.

I managed to capture some PT-CAN logs yesterday morning from my bench mss65 and SMG module and it really helps isolate ArbIDs vs logging an entire car.

The e9x and e6x are now verified to mostly share message addresses with a couple of exceptions. The DCT sends a string in 184 which is not present on SMG. Conversely there is an address (I forget now if its 186 or 189) transmitted by the SMG which is not present in the DCT. I haven't been able to tell yet if the message structures are similar/identical between the two, but partially because the DCT traffic is including a lot of sensor related data from the transmission whereas I don't have a transmission connected to the SMG module I'm logging.

I won't be able to bolt the flywheel to the S85 on an engine stand because...its on an engine stand. Didn't really think about that and stared at it in my cold garage for 10 minutes this morning before the espresso kicked in.

The crank I have getting welded should be back in a week or so and bolt up to that just to verify, but I'm 98% certain at this point they are compatible.

Now we just need a transmission. I've spent too much money on S85 rebuild tools lately. Anyone want to crowdfund it? :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,663 Posts
Good question. I hadn't even considered that. Measured this morning and the SMG flywheel is about 35lbs. DCT flywheel is about 20 lbs.

I've always suspected the code loops which control throttle blips, rev matching, and torque matching on the SMG resided in the SMG module and not the DME software. Since it communicates to the DME an actual N-m torque value request, it seems logical that the DCT after conversion won't request some ridiculously (overly) aggressive throttle blip to match RPM since it would be set for DCT's lower flywheel weight.

A lightweight flywheel in the SMG would be...interesting though.

Verified bolt pattern, size, and diameter are identical between flywheels. Also verified starter ring tooth count, pitch, engagement ramps, and pitch diameter are identical. CPS teeth are identical.

The cranks on the S65 and S85 are internally balanced, so I don't expect anything unusual switching the flywheels from a running perspective.

I managed to capture some PT-CAN logs yesterday morning from my bench mss65 and SMG module and it really helps isolate ArbIDs vs logging an entire car.

The e9x and e6x are now verified to mostly share message addresses with a couple of exceptions. The DCT sends a string in 184 which is not present on SMG. Conversely there is an address (I forget now if its 186 or 189) transmitted by the SMG which is not present in the DCT. I haven't been able to tell yet if the message structures are similar/identical between the two, but partially because the DCT traffic is including a lot of sensor related data from the transmission whereas I don't have a transmission connected to the SMG module I'm logging.

I won't be able to bolt the flywheel to the S85 on an engine stand because...its on an engine stand. Didn't really think about that and stared at it in my cold garage for 10 minutes this morning before the espresso kicked in.

The crank I have getting welded should be back in a week or so and bolt up to that just to verify, but I'm 98% certain at this point they are compatible.

Now we just need a transmission. I've spent too much money on S85 rebuild tools lately. Anyone want to crowdfund it? :p

Both flywheels on top of each other
ImageUploadedByAutoGuide1446302335.456459.jpg

Side by side
ImageUploadedByAutoGuide1446302362.409028.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
225 Posts
The cranks on the S65 and S85 are internally balanced, so I don't expect anything unusual switching the flywheels from a running perspective.
Well the function of the flywheel isn't necessarily to balance an engine; it's to suppress the vibrations that occur due to the peaks and valleys in torque that occur within a single rotation. A 90° V8 will see torque go as high as about 200% of the mean torque and as low as about 10% of the mean torque. See graph below:



I don't know what the instantaneous torque on the S85 looks like because it's an odd-fire engine (90°/54°). But I think it would almost certainly have peaks and valleys that are larger, which could be why the S85 flywheel is heavier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,663 Posts
Well the function of the flywheel isn't necessarily to balance an engine; it's to suppress the vibrations that occur due to the peaks and valleys in torque that occur within a single rotation. A 90° V8 will see torque go as high as about 200% of the mean torque and as low as about 10% of the mean torque. See graph below:







I don't know what the instantaneous torque on the S85 looks like because it's an odd-fire engine (90°/54°). But I think it would almost certainly have peaks and valleys that are larger, which could be why the S85 flywheel is heavier.

Why ya gotta bring like, engineering into it? Man. Off to go read and learn now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
Hey guys,
Great work here. I've been lurking on this thread and though the coding and programming requirements are beyond my skill I think it's a very interesting and doable concept. I part out M3's and M5's so am familiar with their similarities, sometimes wondering if BMW hadn't thought about continuing the S85 platform with a DCT since it's almost uncanny how similar they are. I sold Jay the flywheel and have the DCT transmission for sale. I also usually have a lot of S65 stuff available so let me know if I can be of service. I don't mind marking things down for the cause. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
198 Posts
Very nice. Once everything is mechanically installed, we can control the DCT manually with tool32
I think once the mechanical side is verified, a DCT should just be connected up and we can see what happens.

There are multiple, MULTIPLE references to DKG (means DCT) in the coding for modules on the E60... it's as if they'd planned a just in case scenario for a DCT on the V10!
I can't wait to see what the performances of a DCT V10 is like!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
665 Posts
Discussion Starter #117
I think once the mechanical side is verified, a DCT should just be connected up and we can see what happens.

There are multiple, MULTIPLE references to DKG (means DCT) in the coding for modules on the E60... it's as if they'd planned a just in case scenario for a DCT on the V10!
I can't wait to see what the performances of a DCT V10 is like!
The only references to DCT codings I have seen in e60 are in modules which have shared software with other models like the instrument cluster, headunit, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
408 Posts
Any updates?

Thanks for all the info

I want another v10 M however I think with dct it would be perfect for what I want now

Smg was fun however reliability now a days worries me
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
665 Posts
Discussion Starter #119 (Edited)
We need a dct transmission to get the module online in a valid configuration e60 and see how the system behaves, which faults are present, see how the modules/signals behave, etc. Buying one is somewhat out of the question considering the cost unless multiple people are willing to contribute (I'm more than happy to partake) so we need to find someone who has a connection with a shop/recycler who would be willing to loan us one for temporary R&D purposes.
 
101 - 120 of 313 Posts
About this Discussion
312 Replies
64 Participants
terraphantm
BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
M5Board is the best forum community for information on the BMW M5 E60 (V-10), E39 (V-8), E34 (straight 6), E28, F90 and F10. Discuss performance, specs, reviews and more!
Full Forum Listing
Top