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We appreciate you guys spending the time and money to get this ‘holy grail’ conversion to the E60 M5 working. A DCT in this car would be awesome. Paul, didn’t you supply the Motec unit also for this project?
Nope just the DCT, at the time Jim was looking at re-programming and then he mentioned a MOTEC would be a better way to go and I said if that is then let me know when you get to that point and I will consider supporting that route. Only later on did he stumble on some new info that could possibly work and not need a MOTEC at this time.
 

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Nope just the DCT, at the time Jim was looking at re-programming and then he mentioned a MOTEC would be a better way to go and I said if that is then let me know when you get to that point and I will consider supporting that route. Only later on did he stumble on some new info that could possibly work and not need a MOTEC at this time.
Can't wait!

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Jim,

Thanks for the great and informative thesis on the SMG. I have a much healthier respect for the complexity of this system.
 

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Cant the m3 ecu run 2 extra cylinders?
It's probably missing ignition drivers for the extra 2 cylinders. Not impossible to add those. But it's probably easier to turn an MSS65 into an MSS60 (there's some EWS wrinkles to work out, but I don't think that'll be a big issue).
 

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It's probably missing ignition drivers for the extra 2 cylinders. Not impossible to add those. But it's probably easier to turn an MSS65 into an MSS60 (there's some EWS wrinkles to work out, but I don't think that'll be a big issue).
The MSS60 can do 10.
 

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The MSS60 can do 10.
Agreed. Oddly, in my search to figure that out, I'm fairly certain I can now modify the program area on mss60 and mss65 to run any number of cylinders (max 10) in any number of banks and in any firing order.

Read that as, I'm 99% certain I figured out how to make mss60 run a flat plane crank S65 or an inline 6.
 

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What about actual gearing inside the DCT? Are the rations close to the SMG? Would you have to do a rear end swap too?

The DCT shifts are nothing but amazing.

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Gearing in a DCT is just simply rubbish. It spoils a lot of the driving experience and is one of the very major drawbacks of the F10 F12 F13 in spite of the great torque they have.
Fitting a DCT into an E60 just makes no sense because of that, I don't understand why some people try to do it really...
 

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Gearing in a DCT is just simply rubbish. It spoils a lot of the driving experience and is one of the very major drawbacks of the F10 F12 F13 in spite of the great torque they have.
Fitting a DCT into an E60 just makes no sense because of that, I don't understand why some people try to do it really...
BMW M3 DCT
Gear / Ratio
1st 4.780
2nd 2.933
3rd 2.153
4th 1.678
5th 1.390
6th 1.203
7th 1.000
Final Ratio 3.154


BMW M5 SMG
Gear / Ratio
1st 3.99
2nd 2.65
3rd 1.81
4th 1.39
5th 1.16
6th 1.00
7th 0,83
Final Ratio 3.62


Once you factor in the different final drives the difference is ca. 5% at most. So it being "rubbish" is a bit of a stretch.

A final drive of approx. 3.0 in a DCT swapped car would bring it to be spot on compared to SMG for most gears.

Would be interesting to get a better explanation from you on why you think it´s rubbish.
 

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Gearing in a DCT is just simply rubbish. It spoils a lot of the driving experience and is one of the very major drawbacks of the F10 F12 F13 in spite of the great torque they have.
Fitting a DCT into an E60 just makes no sense because of that, I don't understand why some people try to do it really...


Strange my e60 and f10 i dont have any gearing complaints
 

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BMW M3 DCT
Gear / Ratio
1st 4.780
2nd 2.933
3rd 2.153
4th 1.678
5th 1.390
6th 1.203
7th 1.000
Final Ratio 3.154


BMW M5 SMG
Gear / Ratio
1st 3.99
2nd 2.65
3rd 1.81
4th 1.39
5th 1.16
6th 1.00
7th 0,83
Final Ratio 3.62


Once you factor in the different final drives the difference is ca. 5% at most. So it being "rubbish" is a bit of a stretch.

A final drive of approx. 3.0 in a DCT swapped car would bring it to be spot on compared to SMG for most gears.

Would be interesting to get a better explanation from you on why you think it´s rubbish.
You're comparing with M3 DCT and I was thinking the swaps to be with M5 F10 DCT, I don't have the ratios, don't know if they are the same, I am just speaking from everyday driving.
And it is easy to understand:
Vmax in each gear in km/h ( again from everyday driving, maybe tech data a small bit different but not much ):
M5 SMG / M5 DCT
1st 75/62
2nd 105/115
3rd 160/175
4th 220/240
...
Vmax at redline in 7th I think is around 340/445

So as you can see there is a HUGE difference in gearing
SMG was just spot on.
DCT, well 1st gear is completely useless as it is geared like a 200hp car.
2nd gear is far far too long and makes using it from a standstill just impossible if you are the smallest bit sensitive with mechanical things, and in anyway it's so slow and jurky then that forget about it.
Imposible to get through hairpins correctly. Same for all tight crossings.
All other gears also far too long to be efficient and enjoyable.
7th gear is just a joke, and make motorway cruising a pain in the .... The engine runs so low that you need to reduce to 6th or 5th each time you need to accelerate a bit. At 120km/h it runs so low that the ECU uses the clutch to accelerate. That just kills me!

There is a guy in Germany who makes a final drive that from memory is around 20% shorter. That would be ideal really from 2nd to 7th gears. BUT: 1st gear then to use only for parking duties... And you need to bring the car to him because he needs to reprogram the DCT electronics. Costly, not easy... This is why I have not done it...yet...
 

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You're comparing with M3 DCT and I was thinking the swaps to be with M5 F10 DCT, I don't have the ratios, don't know if they are the same, I am just speaking from everyday driving.
And it is easy to understand:
Vmax in each gear in km/h ( again from everyday driving, maybe tech data a small bit different but not much ):
M5 SMG / M5 DCT
1st 75/62
2nd 105/115
3rd 160/175
4th 220/240
...
Vmax at redline in 7th I think is around 340/445

So as you can see there is a HUGE difference in gearing
SMG was just spot on.
DCT, well 1st gear is completely useless as it is geared like a 200hp car.
2nd gear is far far too long and makes using it from a standstill just impossible if you are the smallest bit sensitive with mechanical things, and in anyway it's so slow and jurky then that forget about it.
Imposible to get through hairpins correctly. Same for all tight crossings.
All other gears also far too long to be efficient and enjoyable.
7th gear is just a joke, and make motorway cruising a pain in the .... The engine runs so low that you need to reduce to 6th or 5th each time you need to accelerate a bit. At 120km/h it runs so low that the ECU uses the clutch to accelerate. That just kills me!

There is a guy in Germany who makes a final drive that from memory is around 20% shorter. That would be ideal really from 2nd to 7th gears. BUT: 1st gear then to use only for parking duties... And you need to bring the car to him because he needs to reprogram the DCT electronics. Costly, not easy... This is why I have not done it...yet...
Have you got this guys details?

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You're comparing with M3 DCT and I was thinking the swaps to be with M5 F10 DCT, I don't have the ratios, don't know if they are the same, I am just speaking from everyday driving.
The F10 DCT, does it even bolt up to the S85 or S65? Same bellhousing pattern?

And yes it has different gearing & final ratio:

BMW F10M5 DCT
Gear / Ratio
1st 4.8
2nd 2.6
3rd 1.7
4th 1.3
5th 1.1
6th 0.84
7th 0.67
Final Ratio 3.15
 

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Not sure where the F10 DCT was ever mentioned for this swap?
I am using the M3 DCT and there is a big difference between how fast a DCT shifts compared to the SMG, that is the primary reason for why I am doing the swap.
 

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Not sure where the F10 DCT was ever mentioned for this swap?
I am using the M3 DCT and there is a big difference between how fast a DCT shifts compared to the SMG, that is the primary reason for why I am doing the swap.
Yup. Actually people who have driven S85/DCT and S85/SMG side by side have commented it was like the SMG car had a broken transmission.
 

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Yup. Actually people who have driven S85/DCT and S85/SMG side by side have commented it was like the SMG car had a broken transmission.
The problem is exacerbated when you start pushing more trq through the system. The SMG does not like that very much.
 

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The problem is exacerbated when you start pushing more trq through the system. The SMG does not like that very much.
I was thinking the e90 M3 DCT the whole time andI was curious on that gearing, not the f10 DCT. I assume it's close being the amost same redline, but I would ndered about the lower HP output of the M3

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Not sure where the F10 DCT was ever mentioned for this swap?
I am using the M3 DCT and there is a big difference between how fast a DCT shifts compared to the SMG, that is the primary reason for why I am doing the swap.
Oh sorry, don't know why but I had never imagined the swap being from the M3 DCT...
Is that one strong enough for the tq/hp numbers you have?

Yes obviously upshifts are great on the DCT. Not sure about the downshifts though... I really miss the M5 downshifts when driving the M6...

If anybody is able to do such a swap I might be interesting in doing it and keeping the M5. But to be honest IMO nobody will ever be able to do so. When I see how aproximate my M6 DCT management is and I imagine how many hundreds or thousands hours of development BMW must have spent in its sofware.
 
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