BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

221 - 240 of 313 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
225 Posts
If you look at the PIB in ISTA of the two cars (E9x vs E6x), there are two lines from the CAS on both. One is the start line and the other the comms line. The comms line goes to a different pin between mss65 and mss60, so tracing that pin on the DME back to the chip, continuity stops at an empty pad for either one respectively.

EWS3 on mss65:


Empty pad on mss65 (next to the upper 3140.3) where EWS4 would be


EWS4 on mss60:


Empty pad on mss60 where EWS3 chip would be:


Not impossible to solder them in, but not much luck finding datasheets on them.
I'm not sure what the EWS3 chip is, but I'm 99% sure the EWS4 one is just a LIN-bus transceiver. This one specifically: E910.15 pdf, E910.15 description, E910.15 datasheets, E910.15 view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::

EWS4 can fall back to CAN anyway, so not soldering that shouldn't be an issue. It's the other 30 components that might be a problem

Edit: This seems to be the "EWS3" IC: http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/datasheet/de/4c/b3/3d/64/7d/48/8e/CD00001660.pdf/files/CD00001660.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.CD00001660.pdf

I think it takes the EWS signal and converts it to a TTL signal so the DME can understand it. I believe the communication is unidirectional, which is why the modules have to be synced for starts to occur properly. EWS4 is bidirectional, so it needs a LIN/K-bus protocol. Advantage is no synchronization necessary - as long as the SK matches, the DME and CAS will figure things out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,406 Posts
I will say the 5-pin config is a typical package for a comparator (TLV3401, LT1716, etc.). They must be using one as a receiver like terraphantm mentioned, for logic level conversion and to protect the micro.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,456 Posts
Well that's good to hear!! If I need to go to a standalone to run this thing I will as I need this DCT on my car sooner rather than later :wink
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,663 Posts
Well that's good to hear!! If I need to go to a standalone to run this thing I will as I need this DCT on my car sooner rather than later :wink
Won't be *needed* per se, but to get the best power from your combo, that mss65 needs to go. ;)

This will actually be running on OEM DME before the MoTeC. I'm having to rewrite some of the VANOS control code for the S85 solenoids. The standard M1 VANOS class only allows up to 500Hz for PWM and the solenoids don't like it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,456 Posts
Won't be *needed* per se, but to get the best power from your combo, that mss65 needs to go. ;)

This will actually be running on OEM DME before the MoTeC. I'm having to rewrite some of the VANOS control code for the S85 solenoids. The standard M1 VANOS class only allows up to 500Hz for PWM and the solenoids don't like it.
If its not needed then at least I have a stepping stone to a better system in the future.....just means an extra trip to see you again LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,663 Posts
Hasnt the issue always been getting the dct to work with the dme? Its been known the dct bolts up
Yes, true. I've spent months in disassembly of both mss60 and mss65 for the motec project, stumbled across a few things, and have something that's convincing enough to try. I honestly was putting the OEM DME DCT combo on the back burner in favor of the Motec, but this seems so feasable, I have to try it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
I have thought I have done all in needs to take every advantage of my M...
but there are some developing engineers left in our forum even though BMW itself has given up this motor for 7 years.
I cannot believe the end product of this project, but here is a thumb-up for you, Jim
and I would save some money on the side to get ready for DCT conversion from you in future;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,663 Posts
I realized I never posted these here, only on IG and the Facebook page.

These are the SMG and DCT management functions in mss65 and mss60 respectively as displayed by IDA Pro (a disassembling program). Of interest is that via configurations options located within the calibration area (the area modified for tuning), there is a "cfg.getreibtype" variable which sets the transmission type. The variable value for SMG is obviously present in mss65 (for the M5), but very surprisingly present in the mss60 (M3) as well. Technically, you could swap an SMG III to an S65 engine and the only changes needed would be a single byte of data in two places in the calibration file. All of the SMG control maps are present in all versions (including current) mss60 (verified up to 240E).

Going in the other direction, as I said a few posts ago, absolutely zero of the DCT functions are present in any version of mss65 (latest being 160E for US and 520E for European). The particular value used for cfg.getreibtype to indicate DCT is not even parsed in mss65 and would yield an invalid value. None of the associated PT-CAN comms data is present in mss65 from the OEM.

Note that as I've been saying for a long time, the SMG is far, far more complex than just rev matching a shift. On a paddle click, the SMG module takes your desire to shift, looks at present torque output, engine input speed (crank), layshaft speed (driveshaft), and makes torque and shift requests via PT-CAN to the DME with an actual desired torque output in newton-meters of the resultant shift. Think about that...for a smooth shift to occur, not only do you need the engine and layshaft RPM to be matched as the clutch is re-engaged, but you need to maintain a relatively constant longitudinal acceleration value (g-force), or the shift will be felt as "harsh" or "lurchy". What makes the SMG so complex is that the vehicle mass (thus differing ZUSBs from the M5 to the M6) has to be taken into account along with torque output from the engine, gear ratios (in the DME), moments of inertia per gear (in the DME), final drive ratio (in the DME), all of these things are taken into account. Also, the obvious things, like shift prevention for undesirables...all of that is actually in the DME, not the SMG. As the SMG makes the request, the DME looks at predicted engine RPMs and if falls outside of operational limits (for a downshift, exceeding RPM limits), it denies the request to the SMG. All in all, a remarkably complex arrangement.

SMG Control Functions
SMG IDA Pro.jpg

DCT Control Functions
DCT IDA Pro.png
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
723 Posts
I realized I never posted these here, only on IG and the Facebook page.



These are the SMG and DCT management functions in mss65 and mss60 respectively as displayed by IDA Pro (a disassembling program). Of interest is that via configurations options located within the calibration area (the area modified for tuning), there is a "cfg.getreibtype" variable which sets the transmission type. The variable value for SMG is obviously present in mss65 (for the M5), but very surprisingly present in the mss60 (M3) as well. Technically, you could swap an SMG III to an S65 engine and the only changes needed would be a single byte of data in two places in the calibration file. All of the SMG control maps are present in all versions (including current) mss60 (verified up to 240E).



Going in the other direction, as I said a few posts ago, absolutely zero of the DCT functions are present in any version of mss65 (latest being 160E for US and 520E for European). The particular value used for cfg.getreibtype to indicate DCT is not even parsed in mss65 and would yield an invalid value. None of the associated PT-CAN comms data is present in mss65 from the OEM.



Note that as I've been saying for a long time, the SMG is far, far more complex than just rev matching a shift. On a paddle click, the SMG module takes your desire to shift, looks at present torque output, engine input speed (crank), layshaft speed (driveshaft), and makes torque and shift requests via PT-CAN to the DME with an actual desired torque output in newton-meters of the resultant shift. Think about that...for a smooth shift to occur, not only do you need the engine and layshaft RPM to be matched as the clutch is re-engaged, but you need to maintain a relatively constant longitudinal acceleration value (g-force), or the shift will be felt as "harsh" or "lurchy". What makes the SMG so complex is that the vehicle mass (thus differing ZUSBs from the M5 to the M6) has to be taken into account along with torque output from the engine, gear ratios (in the DME), moments of inertia per gear (in the DME), final drive ratio (in the DME), all of these things are taken into account. Also, the obvious things, like shift prevention for undesirables...all of that is actually in the DME, not the SMG. As the SMG makes the request, the DME looks at predicted engine RPMs and if falls outside of operational limits (for a downshift, exceeding RPM limits), it denies the request to the SMG. All in all, a remarkably complex arrangement.



SMG Control Functions

View attachment 857090



DCT Control Functions

View attachment 857098


That’s why you the man and appreciated for your work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Probably didn't understand half of what Jim posted but the half I did understand kind of leaves you in awe of the SMG as imperfect as it may be. At least from an engineering perspective.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,456 Posts
Always informative Jim, I know it's been like 2 years since I sent you the DCT but I also understood the areas of getting the programming compatible between the two systems. Hoping to see this project come to fruition soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,294 Posts
We appreciate you guys spending the time and money to get this ‘holy grail’ conversion to the E60 M5 working. A DCT in this car would be awesome. Paul, didn’t you supply the Motec unit also for this project?
 
221 - 240 of 313 Posts
About this Discussion
312 Replies
64 Participants
terraphantm
BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
M5Board is the best forum community for information on the BMW M5 E60 (V-10), E39 (V-8), E34 (straight 6), E28, F90 and F10. Discuss performance, specs, reviews and more!
Full Forum Listing
Top