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I'm in Los Angeles, CA.
I'd like to see this dct s85 on the move and then I might have to take a nice little road trip out there hahaa please keep us updated on this build!!
 

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Bumping this as I've spent an inordinate amount of time starting at mss65 and mss60 disassembly in the last month.

Things I know for certain:
- There is zero possibility of a DCT working with any released version of mss65 (US 160E or Euro 520E). 100% certain that none of the DCT torque management routines are present in mss65.
- mss60 (m3) will actually run an SMG. Who knew? All of the mss65 SMG code was carried over into the mss60 (it was a late development, lots of reused code), so the mss60 will run 6mt, dct, or smg.
- The maps used for SMG shifting are not used in any way for DCT control. As many of you know, I have been tuning these maps to improve SMG performance with good results thus far.
- The DCT control routines are actually simper than the SMG, I'm almost inclined to say by an order of magnitude.
- The DCT will not function without proper torque messaging between the DME and DCT
- Torque management to a DCT is not feasible using a "man-in-the-middle" module between mss65 and a DCT. The interaction is so integral to the DME's operation that without first order interaction, the proper torque torque management and messaging is not possible (feasible).
- Getting the DCT to work with the S85 is possible, but not with any existing mss65 binary.

I have run across a few things that are promising and hope to test in the next couple of weeks. It's significant enough I'm putting the MoTeC work on hold to test.
 

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So happy to hear the updates Jim, this project has been a long one and I can't wait to test it out when it's ready :wink
 

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It never got done, neither did his brake upgrade

Funny he asks for help on the forum but not many people willing to help him

If he couldnt figure out a brake upgrade then im sure he couldnt get a dct to work
 

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Bumping this as I've spent an inordinate amount of time starting at mss65 and mss60 disassembly in the last month.

Things I know for certain:
- There is zero possibility of a DCT working with any released version of mss65 (US 160E or Euro 520E). 100% certain that none of the DCT torque management routines are present in mss65.
- mss60 (m3) will actually run an SMG. Who knew? All of the mss65 SMG code was carried over into the mss60 (it was a late development, lots of reused code), so the mss60 will run 6mt, dct, or smg.
- The maps used for SMG shifting are not used in any way for DCT control. As many of you know, I have been tuning these maps to improve SMG performance with good results thus far.
- The DCT control routines are actually simper than the SMG, I'm almost inclined to say by an order of magnitude.
- The DCT will not function without proper torque messaging between the DME and DCT
- Torque management to a DCT is not feasible using a "man-in-the-middle" module between mss65 and a DCT. The interaction is so integral to the DME's operation that without first order interaction, the proper torque torque management and messaging is not possible (feasible).
- Getting the DCT to work with the S85 is possible, but not with any existing mss65 binary.

I have run across a few things that are promising and hope to test in the next couple of weeks. It's significant enough I'm putting the MoTeC work on hold to test.
It's been a while since I've messed with the MSS6x DMEs (just kinda lost interest since I don't have a car with one of those DMEs), but can the MSS60 software be configured to run in 10 cylinder mode (like how MSS54 software can be configured for 8 cylinders)? I know you can flash the MSS65 w/ MSS60 software via BDM, though I don't know if it runs properly. That's probably the route I would try personally -- flash the MSS65 with MSS60 software, configure all the maps/curves/scalars/switches to the S85 values, and go from there. Much easier said than done of course, but seems easier than transplanting the torque management routines to the MSS65.

Would have to deal with EWS since as far as I know the MSS65 uses EWS3 and MSS60 uses EWS4, though I imagine someone who's disassembled as much as you have can figure out the EWS bypass fairly easily (or if not, I think 2008+ cars have a CAS module that can be configured to EWS4 mode)
 

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Wow. It never got done? Wasn’t I the guy who got blasted for calling this guy out? Nice to see you back on the board Jim, same for you Paul. Hope your buisness is doing well.
 

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It's been a while since I've messed with the MSS6x DMEs (just kinda lost interest since I don't have a car with one of those DMEs), but can the MSS60 software be configured to run in 10 cylinder mode (like how MSS54 software can be configured for 8 cylinders)? I know you can flash the MSS65 w/ MSS60 software via BDM, though I don't know if it runs properly. That's probably the route I would try personally -- flash the MSS65 with MSS60 software, configure all the maps/curves/scalars/switches to the S85 values, and go from there. Much easier said than done of course, but seems easier than transplanting the torque management routines to the MSS65.

Would have to deal with EWS since as far as I know the MSS65 uses EWS3 and MSS60 uses EWS4, though I imagine someone who's disassembled as much as you have can figure out the EWS bypass fairly easily (or if not, I think 2008+ cars have a CAS module that can be configured to EWS4 mode)
MSS60 on the s85 is iffy. I haven't traced the disassembly much to see if its possible, but the ionic current system is completely different as the mss60 doesn't use any external modules for it. It's enough I wouldn't risk flashing a mss65 with mss60.

EWS is a problem as well, the portion that is looked at in CAS 3 for the mss65 I'm very familiar with as I can "virginize" those for use with another CAS as if they were new. On mss60, that is the processor that is locked from BDM read to prevent editing that area for reflash virginized. I wouldn't be surprised if the ISN lookup is similar though. As far as I can tell, most of the CAS / EWS is very similar if not identical. In fact, as I couldn't BDM read an mss60 for use in IDA, I used an OBD read (omitting boot area) and tossed an mss65 boot area into the IDA project. Surprisingly, there's a lot of stuff I thought would be missing or not linked properly that seems to be fine.

It may be possible to create a binary which combines portions of mss60 assembly with mss65 to incorporate the DCT portions into mss65. I suspect with help if a particular infamous OEM calibrator, this is what Gintani has managed to do.

I will say, DCT torque management seems to be far more straightforward than SMG is. SMG seems to require much more "care and feeding" as it integrates directly to the idle actuators and even has SMG LLS RPM setpoints with PID control.
 

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Wow. It never got done? Wasn’t I the guy who got blasted for calling this guy out? Nice to see you back on the board Jim, same for you Paul. Hope your buisness is doing well.
I think Dinan's did actually get finished and works. I've seen a few convincing videos here and there.
 

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MSS60 on the s85 is iffy. I haven't traced the disassembly much to see if its possible, but the ionic current system is completely different as the mss60 doesn't use any external modules for it. It's enough I wouldn't risk flashing a mss65 with mss60.

EWS is a problem as well, the portion that is looked at in CAS 3 for the mss65 I'm very familiar with as I can "virginize" those for use with another CAS as if they were new. On mss60, that is the processor that is locked from BDM read to prevent editing that area for reflash virginized. I wouldn't be surprised if the ISN lookup is similar though. As far as I can tell, most of the CAS / EWS is very similar if not identical. In fact, as I couldn't BDM read an mss60 for use in IDA, I used an OBD read (omitting boot area) and tossed an mss65 boot area into the IDA project. Surprisingly, there's a lot of stuff I thought would be missing or not linked properly that seems to be fine.

It may be possible to create a binary which combines portions of mss60 assembly with mss65 to incorporate the DCT portions into mss65. I suspect with help if a particular infamous OEM calibrator, this is what Gintani has managed to do.

I will say, DCT torque management seems to be far more straightforward than SMG is. SMG seems to require much more "care and feeding" as it integrates directly to the idle actuators and even has SMG LLS RPM setpoints with PID control.
Having done so myself, I know MSS60 software on the MSS65 does boot - I just don't know if it actually will run an engine without error. Early MSS60s are unlocked, and I do have a full dump (including the EWS data) from such an MSS60.

EWS4 is a little different in that there isn't an official syncing procedure. The secret key is manually entered at the factory (you can't order a completely virgin EWS4 DME). On the non-M DMEs, the EWS4 routines are in many ways simpler, though I haven't gotten around to testing a proper EWS delete (though I recently figured out boot mode on those DMEs, so I can experiment with more invasive stuff).
 

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Having done so myself, I know MSS60 software on the MSS65 does boot - I just don't know if it actually will run an engine without error. Early MSS60s are unlocked, and I do have a full dump (including the EWS data) from such an MSS60.

EWS4 is a little different in that there isn't an official syncing procedure. The secret key is manually entered at the factory (you can't order a completely virgin EWS4 DME). On the non-M DMEs, the EWS4 routines are in many ways simpler, though I haven't gotten around to testing a proper EWS delete (though I recently figured out boot mode on those DMEs, so I can experiment with more invasive stuff).
If you're willing to share that dump, i'd be appreciative. I'm in the middle of trying to get an mss60 flashed from V32 SP-DATEN, but having a hard time getting WinKFP to allow it with a konv.tmp error on the HWH file. I've tried editing the file to add the hardware number in the DME, but no luck so far getting it flash. Part of the struggle is figuring out which ZUSB the BDM lock was implemented. I have already figured out the "how" it was implemented on mpc563 and how to remove it (i think), but would prefer to just use a version prior to that for testing. I chimed in on the M3F post on mss60 (not sure if you saw it) and messaged you there. I'll share some, but still a little shy to share some of it just yet.
 

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I've not read through this entire thread, but has anyone had contact, or know of a contact, with those at BMW who did the M5 "CSL" by chance? I have an article about the car from BWM Car magazine that doesn't say much in detail, obviously (unfortunately), but does list some interesting details about BMW's stroker S85: bore stock S85 92mm, stroke to 82mm, increasing displacement by 0.452l; 8750 redline; intake valve +2mm to 37mm, ported intake ports/head, titanium con rods, coolant elevated with the crank housing; carbon-fibre plenum with optimized intakes, modified headers, exhaust increased to 70mm, additional oil cooler located underneath kidney grills (modified bumper).

Anyway, as for the S85 SMG to DCT conversion: "...the engine management has been upgraded to a modified version of the E9x M3's S60 system." "...a modified version of the M3's M-DCT twin clutch gearbox in place of the standard SMG transmission. You could be forgiven for thinking that fitting an entirely new transmission could have created a headache for M's boffins, but according to Albert Biermann, Head of Engineering at BMW M: 'No difficulties were experienced with this project'."

The implication of course is using the MSS60, but clearly it could have been an either way process or the creation of some hybrid MSS60/65 as so much of the rest of the car is custom one-off stuff. I imagine the "no difficulties" remark might be true for those that created this all to begin with...
 

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I suspect "modified version of the E9x MSS60" means that it's an MSS60 with the extra ignition drivers for the extra 2 cylinders and the mapping being appropriate for the S85 rather than the S65. Flashing an MSS65 with the MSS60 software might be the "easiest" way to go, and is the option I would explore if I were building such a car.

Would be curious about what the modifications to the transmission itself are, but I suspect it's nothing that would prevent the car from running - long term reliability might be a concern (not that the SMG3 is particularly reliable in the long term as it is).
 

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I've not read through this entire thread, but has anyone had contact, or know of a contact, with those at BMW who did the M5 "CSL" by chance?
This was pursued. Turned out to be a dead end.
 

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So, the actual chip on the mss60 that handles EWS4 is not present on mss65. The chip on mss65 that handles ews3 is not present on mss60. This makes cross flashing binaries unlikely to work. Additionally, I count over 30 components present on mss60 not present on mss65. mss65 has about 5 not present on mss60 (ews3 and ionic module comms).

Looking into EWS disassembly to see if I can find any sign of EWS 3 stuff in mss60
 

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So, the actual chip on the mss60 that handles EWS4 is not present on mss65. The chip on mss65 that handles ews3 is not present on mss60. This makes cross flashing binaries unlikely to work. Additionally, I count over 30 components present on mss60 not present on mss65. mss65 has about 5 not present on mss60 (ews3 and ionic module comms).

Looking into EWS disassembly to see if I can find any sign of EWS 3 stuff in mss60
Getting so much closer with all this info! Good or bad, this is all good info.
 

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So, the actual chip on the mss60 that handles EWS4 is not present on mss65. The chip on mss65 that handles ews3 is not present on mss60. This makes cross flashing binaries unlikely to work. Additionally, I count over 30 components present on mss60 not present on mss65. mss65 has about 5 not present on mss60 (ews3 and ionic module comms).

Looking into EWS disassembly to see if I can find any sign of EWS 3 stuff in mss60
Are any of those extra components BGA? If not, soldering should be easy enough. If it is, it's still doable, but becomes difficult for most people. There is also *some* EWS3 code in the MSS60, I don't know how much of it is present though.

MSS6x really handle EWS on a separate chip? That's... odd. The SK/ISN is definitely stored on the main flash, and most every other DME BMW has handles EWS right from the main processor. In the case of EWS4, there's a LIN-bus IC for communication between the DME and CAS, but if that fails it can fall back to CAN communication.

In any case, I think I found a potential EWS delete, so that might be a moot point.
 

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Are any of those extra components BGA? If not, soldering should be easy enough. If it is, it's still doable, but becomes difficult for most people. There is also *some* EWS3 code in the MSS60, I don't know how much of it is present though.

MSS6x really handle EWS on a separate chip? That's... odd. The SK/ISN is definitely stored on the main flash, and most every other DME BMW has handles EWS right from the main processor. In the case of EWS4, there's a LIN-bus IC for communication between the DME and CAS, but if that fails it can fall back to CAN communication.

In any case, I think I found a potential EWS delete, so that might be a moot point.
If you look at the PIB in ISTA of the two cars (E9x vs E6x), there are two lines from the CAS on both. One is the start line and the other the comms line. The comms line goes to a different pin between mss65 and mss60, so tracing that pin on the DME back to the chip, continuity stops at an empty pad for either one respectively.

EWS3 on mss65:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rPnfzIocu0f5mUOZ2

Empty pad on mss65 (next to the upper 3140.3) where EWS4 would be
https://photos.app.goo.gl/d1HrAuWHmpg4CFEy2

EWS4 on mss60:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rP8R3Tt2wTfMYHpU2

Empty pad on mss60 where EWS3 chip would be:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KzVZSfNS5wj1dDdf2

Not impossible to solder them in, but not much luck finding datasheets on them.
 
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