BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

1 - 20 of 51 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
832 Posts
Now I begin to wonder....after 607hp what next 700hp ?

It will get to a stage where the increase in horsepower will no longer be useful...other than for bragging rights. How many people actually use the 507hp that the E60 has ? Not too many i'm sure.

It really pains me to see BMW go down this route....after all they're the ones that created the "supersaloon" segment.

In my opinion the M5 has always been about the sum total of its parts.....the AMG's and "super-Audis" may flatten their BMW M equivalents in a straight line but once corners are involved the BMW's will leave them all for dead.

Handling, driver involvement, and wonderful high revving engines are the reason that I drive an M....as this was the initial design brief....but I guess that age has skewed my perception of reality and I'm not living in the current times where we all want blown engines with 6500rpm redlines and a gazillion un-usable hp's !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
283 Posts
Inside F-10 rumour

Thanks Gustav, 607 hp is certainly nothing to sneeze at. It seems as though the horsepower war is ever increasing relative to European and Domestic auto manufacturers. I don't know at the present time if I'll make the jump to the F-10 M-5 because of the increase in hp. I'm sure I'll make the appropriate investigation into its capabilities and spend some time at the local dealer when they finally arrive. However, it's damn difficult to experience the total capabilities of my E-60 M-5 at 507 hp. I would much perfer to have a well balanced M where the hp and handling compliment each other. We'll soon find out!
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Now I begin to wonder....after 607hp what next 700hp ?
i've had a similar feeling since the E60 came out

am curious as to what the E60 owners think the F10 should have in performance numbers?

0-60:
Top Speed:
Horsepower:
Nurburgring Time or a track time already recorded by the E60:




imo matching the E60 is more than enough for the car, while making it more nimble should be priority #1. 204/5mph is already as fast a zonda, carrera gt, f40, f50, porsche gt2, maserati mc12...although matching 220 like a brabus benz does have a mystique to it
CTS-V nurburgring time was done with a role cage - let alone everything else - i was referring to a time done by the e60 not another car

what i meant by the question is where are the owners expecting to go with performance from gen-to-gen?

sure e39 to e60 was a leap, but a similar leap would put the M5 on par with quite a few modern supercars
- especially in 0-60 & top speed
- looking at the 55 AMGs vs the 63 AMGs mercedes reset their numbers to give themselves some breathing room
- thinking what comes after the F10 at 4sec to 60 & 210 top speed
- you're looking at 220 & near 3.5 to 60
- where are supercars going to be then 1sec to 60? 240/250 norm?


P.S.
this is why i found it weird that people where calling the 2000s the HORSEPOWER WARS...the HP wars where in the 90s when it actually made a difference based on numbers alone - today there's plenty of cars with less HP that perform equally or better than cars with higher HP

KOENIGSEGG > BUGATTI > SSC AERO

basically we should be expecting these things more often - because once you get everyone to 2/2.5 seconds where are they going to go? into the negatives? manufacturers will be making cars that perform similarly or slightly better in numbers in exchange for handling and driving experience - which is what they should/are doing with the F10
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
4,385 Posts
Thanks Gustav, 607 hp is certainly nothing to sneeze at. It seems as though the horsepower war is ever increasing relative to European and Domestic auto manufacturers. I don't know at the present time if I'll make the jump to the F-10 M-5 because of the increase in hp. I'm sure I'll make the appropriate investigation into its capabilities and spend some time at the local dealer when they finally arrive. However, it's damn difficult to experience the total capabilities of my E-60 M-5 at 507 hp. I would much perfer to have a well balanced M where the hp and handling compliment each other. We'll soon find out!

this too

i don't think it's a HP War ...or if it is then it's more like a cold war

the manufacturers have no problem cranking out big numbers and they just do it to +1up each other
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
550 Posts
Now I begin to wonder....after 607hp what next 700hp ?

It will get to a stage where the increase in horsepower will no longer be useful...other than for bragging rights. How many people actually use the 507hp that the E60 has ? Not too many i'm sure.

It really pains me to see BMW go down this route....after all they're the ones that created the "supersaloon" segment.

In my opinion the M5 has always been about the sum total of its parts.....the AMG's and "super-Audis" may flatten their BMW M equivalents in a straight line but once corners are involved the BMW's will leave them all for dead.

Handling, driver involvement, and wonderful high revving engines are the reason that I drive an M....as this was the initial design brief....but I guess that age has skewed my perception of reality and I'm not living in the current times where we all want blown engines with 6500rpm redlines and a gazillion un-usable hp's !
Thanks Gustav, 607 hp is certainly nothing to sneeze at. It seems as though the horsepower war is ever increasing relative to European and Domestic auto manufacturers. I don't know at the present time if I'll make the jump to the F-10 M-5 because of the increase in hp. I'm sure I'll make the appropriate investigation into its capabilities and spend some time at the local dealer when they finally arrive. However, it's damn difficult to experience the total capabilities of my E-60 M-5 at 507 hp. I would much perfer to have a well balanced M where the hp and handling compliment each other. We'll soon find out!

Why don't the two of you downgrade to a 528i. It's a piece of cake to use the 507hp that the car has. Just need a little opening and put your foot to the floor. If you guys can't figure out a way to use all the hp, then you're not driving the car right.


Also keep in mind, this car will gain 400lbs, which will offset this horsepower increase.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,276 Posts
Why don't the two of you downgrade to a 528i. It's a piece of cake to use the 507hp that the car has. Just need a little opening and put your foot to the floor. If you guys can't figure out a way to use all the hp, then you're not driving the car right.


Also keep in mind, this car will gain 400lbs, which will offset this horsepower increase.

Take it easy there.. They probably should have qualified the statement with "where you going to use the 507hp without going to jail".. sure you can punch it to 155+ each time but then you get caught by police for speeding and then what?
E60 is savage up top and you get into triple digits very easily.. with traffic and drivers unaware of how fast the M is accelerating, there are just a few times where you can really put foot to floor and gun it.. gun it i mean 140+ on public roads..

last week, i was @ 142-145mph chasing down 650i who was going over 130+ and I was still accelerating and eventually caught him but just down the road, we saw state police had pulled over another car for speeding.. imagine getting caught @ those speeds. Point im trying to make is it is difficult to extract the proper speeds on public roads from the E60 let alone F10 with close to 600hp.. it is a different matter however on some european roads with no posted speed limits..
 
  • Like
Reactions: ccieurzo

·
Registered
Joined
·
550 Posts
Take it easy there.. They probably should have qualified the statement with "where you going to use the 507hp without going to jail".. sure you can punch it to 155+ each time but then you get caught by police for speeding and then what?
E60 is savage up top and you get into triple digits very easily.. with traffic and drivers unaware of how fast the M is accelerating, there are just a few times where you can really put foot to floor and gun it.. gun it i mean 140+ on public roads..

last week, i was @ 142-145mph chasing down 650i who was going over 130+ and I was still accelerating and eventually caught him but just down the road, we saw state police had pulled over another car for speeding.. imagine getting caught @ those speeds. Point im trying to make is it is difficult to extract the proper speeds on public roads from the E60 let alone F10 with close to 600hp.. it is a different matter however on some european roads with no posted speed limits..
You don't have to go 155+ to use 507hp. It can be used to pass cars on the freeways, on ramps, spirited acceleration around town (within reason of course), wide open road jaunts, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
283 Posts
Latest inside rumour "F-10"

Lighten up "Verbs". I've been driving hi-performance cars for most of my adult life which includes American and Foreign muscle. Some of these cars exceeded the hp of the present E-60 M5. At the risk of more critcisim, this experience includes numerous years as Chief driver training instructor for the Maryland State Police, patrol experiences in metro and rural areas chasing down crazy people like me, relationships with manufacturers responsible for police vehicle development, as well as experiences with some professional counterparts from CHP, Fla. Hwy Patrol, Michigan State Police etc. I believe I am well versed with regard to how and when to use the full capabilities of my M-5. The point I was trying to make was that typically in todays environment with the poor level of drivers and traffic around you as well as road design, it has become increasingly difficult to experience the full potential of the "Beast". Furthermore, horsepower is not always the magic bullet as opposed to a well balanced machine that is thoughtfully designed to make use of its engine, drive train and chassis. I hope BMW can pull this off with its new F-10. Sorry to hi-jack the thread. Verbs, have a great day!:cool:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,886 Posts
607 HP is very nice. How much will it weigh.

If they can make it 607 HP and weigh no more than 1500 KGs, it will be one hell of an ///M5.
Well, no chance of that, but I agree with your basic point. HP really doesn't mean anything without the weight of the vehicle to get the hp/weight ratio. And of course given two equal hp/weight numbers, the lighter car always wins in my book. If the new M5 comes in at close to the same hp/weight as the old, THAT will be a real disappointment. If it's significantly better, we'll all be happy campers. I think the most interesting comparo will be whether it beats the Porsche Panamera Turbo in acceleration and handling.

I also have to agree with DFrankM5 about the importance of the 'integrated package'. I have a Porsche Cayman S that I've modded pretty extensively and though it has 150hp less than the M5, it 'feels' faster and is way more responsive to the throttle. Part of this is because of the torque curve, and the lightness of the car. Of course it completely blows my M5 away on the racetrack.

That being said, I still want 600+ HP in the new M5. Part of my reason is I want the bragging rights. I don't imagine I'll be doing too many stoplight drags or highway runs, but it's nice to be the king of sedans.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,496 Posts
+1, agree that its the whole package, but im just not seeing how anyone thinks the F10 M5 is coming in much lighter than the non-M version in the 550i guise. What can they do to take that much weight off the car without asking an astronomical price for custom body panels for them M?

Car and driver has the latest story out saying basically the same thing every other mag has said on the new 550i, power is up, but so it weight, approx 400lbs of additional mass that basically negates the performance gains from the higher output ttV8 in the non-M. I have no idea what BMW and M have in store for the final product, but even if they add 100hp, would you still want it if it also adds 400lb to the equation? I can see perhaps, somehow someway M uses lighter materials on the roof, hood, and doors, but can that take even 200lb off the M car vs standard 550i? Then you have to consider the larger equiptment needed to stop the car and handle the added power and Im not at all sure what they can really reduce at the end of the day, so this may be a very heavy car by any measurable standards...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,276 Posts
You don't have to go 155+ to use 507hp. It can be used to pass cars on the freeways, on ramps, spirited acceleration around town (within reason of course), wide open road jaunts, etc.
I'm not advocating 155+ :D on public roads but @ 80 mph passing speed, the M is just waking up.. punch the gas on overpass\freeway\wide open roads and see how quickly you are in triple digits.. there is of course so much more to just pure speed like driving dynamics, etc.. like DFrankm5 pointed out..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,356 Posts
+1, agree that its the whole package, but im just not seeing how anyone thinks the F10 M5 is coming in much lighter than the non-M version in the I can see perhaps, somehow someway M uses lighter materials on the roof, hood, and doors, but can that take even 200lb off the M car vs standard 550i?
M cars weigh more than their series counterparts due to the additional weight of bigger wheels, wider tires, more exhausts, bigger brakes, stiffer chassis, beefier suspension, etc. They can mitigate this a bit with more aluminum, CF, etc., but it still will weigh more, usually lots more. I hope they make heroic efforts at keeping the M weight delta down a bit this time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49,476 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
An update from another source. Dynos easily all day between 400 and 440 kW but it suffers some termic problems. Also grip from is logically domehow of a problem.



Sent from my phone
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
550 Posts
+1, agree that its the whole package, but im just not seeing how anyone thinks the F10 M5 is coming in much lighter than the non-M version in the 550i guise. What can they do to take that much weight off the car without asking an astronomical price for custom body panels for them M?

Car and driver has the latest story out saying basically the same thing every other mag has said on the new 550i, power is up, but so it weight, approx 400lbs of additional mass that basically negates the performance gains from the higher output ttV8 in the non-M. ...
That's a load of crap; a member's brother's 550i ran a [email protected] at the track. I don't ever remember a non-M 5 series running anthing close to that in E60 form.

I have no idea what BMW and M have in store for the final product, but even if they add 100hp, would you still want it if it also adds 400lb to the equation? I can see perhaps, somehow someway M uses lighter materials on the roof, hood, and doors, but can that take even 200lb off the M car vs standard 550i? Then you have to consider the larger equiptment needed to stop the car and handle the added power and Im not at all sure what they can really reduce at the end of the day, so this may be a very heavy car by any measurable standards...
Don't forget that the 4300lb Automatic Transmissioned Cadillac CTS-V destroyed the M5's Nurburgring time by what, 13 seconds? That's amazing for a car that weighed about 250lbs more than the M5 did that ran the inferior time. I'm not saying the weight is preferred, just that big cars can be engineered to handle well.
 
1 - 20 of 51 Posts
Top