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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi everyone. Finally got a call back from my contact in K&N.

Timing: Looks like we won't see this officially released until late January. The driver's side heat shield arrived and required some manual modifications. A hole was drilled out of alignment and the washer fluid filler attachment was bent incorrectly. Both were manually adjusted in the shop on mine, but these changes had to go back to engineering for final drawings and resubmitted for another "pilot" run to ensure proper fitment.

Price: Nothing official, but a few changes from what I thought regarding the covers. The main intake set will basically be approximately double a typical intake kit (because there are two of them), but no final numbers are in place. It could be anywhere from $500-700 or more, but not likely. Steel lids will NOT be included standard in the kit. The heat shields were designed to reasonably meet up with the roof of the hood, therefore not requiring additional lids. However, these lids may be availble if sales and interest is high enough. I was told it could take a good 6 months for that to happen. Carbon Fiber lids are almost not an option. The normal intakes will be among the most expensive kits for K&N ever (next to the Viper kit) and they would require a fairly significant amount of interest to produce the forms necessary to make carbon fiber lids (probably 100+ orders).

Lids: As noted above, lids will NOT be a standard part of the kit. Instead, with enough sales they will make them available as an option. Low to mid $100s are targeted for the price. Carbon Fiber covers will almost certainly not be happening. Overall the product manager told me that the heat shields were designed from the beginning to not require lids but instead to meet up reasonably with the hood.

Group buy possibilities: K&N will not do a group buy. However, in the meantime I have been discussing the intakes with a shop that sells K&N products and may be able to put something together. Basically, they will pre-order a certain number for the "group" plus whatever stock they want to carry. Once they sell out of the pre-order number, no additional sales will occur at the price I end up negotiating for us. See the group buy thread noted below (after I create it) to put in your yes or no.

Performance: I was told the dyno numbers noted at SEMA (25.xx hp) are relatively conservative numbers, but they displayed that number there because it was among the lowest HP gains at high rpm levels that was consistently displayed across three dyno'ed cars (not just mine). It was NOT the peak HP gain, which was even a little higher. I will be receiving a full HP/torque chart of my car when the product is finally released, but until then even I don't have a chart to post or discuss. I was also assured that there was no drop in torque, only consistent gains in rpm which matches up with the first dyno chart of my car that I did see way back in August.
 

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JamesInLV said:
Performance: I was told the dyno numbers noted at SEMA (25.xx hp) are relatively conservative numbers, but they displayed that number there because it was among the lowest HP gains at high rpm levels that was consistently displayed across three dyno'ed cars (not just mine). It was NOT the peak HP gain, which was even a little higher. I will be receiving a full HP/torque chart of my car when the product is finally released, but until then even I don't have a chart to post or discuss. I was also assured that there was no drop in torque, only consistent gains in rpm which matches up with the first dyno chart of my car that I did see way back in August.
And why would anyone possibly question K&N salesmen, er engineers?

Amazing that real engine tuners like A&A can't get this but K&N can... hmmm.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=83181&page=3&highlight=dyno


Just call me a skeptic....
 

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_Zac said:
....but I figured I'd chime in and say that nothing is impossible.:cheers:
I disagree. Some things are, in fact, impossible.

This kit will suck hot air from the engine compartment- do all the dynos you want, in two years i predict folks will look back with the wisdom of experience and agree this was a scam.

(Are they sponsors? am I in trouble? :) )
 

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I'll see what I can do about an intake system....soon. w/injectors
 

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ard said:
I disagree. Some things are, in fact, impossible.

This kit will suck hot air from the engine compartment- do all the dynos you want, in two years i predict folks will look back with the wisdom of experience and agree this was a scam.

(Are they sponsors? am I in trouble? :) )
I agree, the M engineers (some of the best on the planet) just left 50 hp on the table with a simple intake and exhaust system. Makes no sense.

My expectations for buying an intake / exhaust system is 3-5 hp and better sounds.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
ard...tell you what. K&N is looking for an E39. Drive there, they'll give you a loaner for a week while they work on developing the kit for your car. You'll get the kit for free when it's finished, along with before & after dyno charts. If you want to attend the dyno run day to watch it all happen with your own eyes, you can burn a day of your time during the week too. If there are no gains on the E39, they wouldn't make the kit and you would have information to stand by. Otherwise, you're just putting down a product you don't have, haven't seen, on a car you don't have either. You speak from some knowledge I'm sure, but not direct personal experience in this matter.

I know that new headers produce a pretty good horsepower gain on this engine. But following your argument on this I could say they're simply re-routing the exhaust on a different path and how could that possibly produce any gains. It's just a marketing ploy. Show me the numbers!

For $500-700 on this kit, if no gains are produced it still costs 1/4 of what most people are spending on their modified exhausts which only do one thing...change the sound. And this kit gives you a little more sound from the engine compartment too. Even the companies making the exhausts admit there are no performance gains. At least with the K&N intake there are dyno'ed results and a publicly displayed performance number (@ SEMA) that says there is an appreciable gain. If you want to send me a few hundred dollars or find me someone here in Las Vegas that will do dyno runs for free, I'll have my car independently dyno'ed with stock vs. K&N intakes. Otherwise, K&N already did it and will be publishing the before & after HP dyno chart when the product is released.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
T Bone said:
I agree, the M engineers (some of the best on the planet) just left 50 hp on the table with a simple intake and exhaust system. Makes no sense.
BMW has to follow CARB guidelines for California, one of their best USA markets. That required special secondary charcoal filters to be installed in the stock airboxes. The stock airboxes being a more closed system also keeps noise and resonance down from the engine compartment. There is an appreciable increase in sound from the engine compartment with the K&N intakes at all but cruising levels of throttle. Remember this is a sports car disquised as a luxury car, so they want to control for sound just like they control for power. The big gains from headers are motivated by an even more important factor for BMW: engine life. They're warrantying this car, even providing full maintenance for 4/50k in the USA, so they needed to design accordingly and I'm sure some of the detuning was done on purpose for these very reasons.
 

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JamesInLV said:
BMW has to follow CARB guidelines for California, one of their best USA markets. That required special secondary charcoal filters to be installed in the stock airboxes. The stock airboxes being a more closed system also keeps noise and resonance down from the engine compartment. There is an appreciable increase in sound from the engine compartment with the K&N intakes at all but cruising levels of throttle. Remember this is a sports car disquised as a luxury car, so they want to control for sound just like they control for power. The big gains from headers are motivated by an even more important factor for BMW: engine life. They're warrantying this car, even providing full maintenance for 4/50k in the USA, so they needed to design accordingly and I'm sure some of the detuning was done on purpose for these very reasons.
I am going to buy this anyway. I have like K&N products since I started driving.

The only issue is I don't believe any of the HP gains that are marketed by any of these companies.
 

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james thanks so much for the write up and keeping on top of this

you don't have to explain this to anyone..if they want they'll buy it if not so be it. i have done k&n intakes in a couple of cars as well as four atv's and always noticed a HUGE difference so im with you..im all in..
 

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Sounds like good value to me. All these kinds of gains are incremental anyway and hopefully end up complimenting the other modifications as Kelleners told Keith their cams worked better with a good set of headers, supersprint in this particular case. K&N's, cams, headers and GOOD ecu could get fairly close to 600hp if everyone is to be believed!!
 

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T Bone said:
I agree, the M engineers (some of the best on the planet) just left 50 hp on the table with a simple intake and exhaust system. Makes no sense.

My expectations for buying an intake / exhaust system is 3-5 hp and better sounds.
BMW engineers (and many other high performance manufacturers) are notorious for leaving HP on the table detuning the engine via the ECU. It makes their lives easier in subsequent model years. Do you want to design a completely new V10 every 3 years to beat AMG/Mercedes and Audi? Too expensive and time consuming.

Any Corvette owners out there? How many of you put an CAI on your LS6 C5, and reset the fuel maps with LS1 Edit software and a dyno tuning? How much HP did you gain; 15-20 at the wheels? My 2001 C5 Z06 went from 347 to 363 rwhp. Remember this car came from the factory with a stated HP at the flywheel of 385. On the dyno my Z06 was putting out 403 HP at the flywheel (with CAI but no dyno tune, assuming 15% drive train loss). After CAI+ECU software tune 363 rwhp converts to 427 HP at the flywheel. BTW- in 2002 the C5 Z06 was released with a stated 405 HP. What did the Chevy engineers do to extract the extra 20 HP? Improved the air box, lightened up the exhaust valves and put in mildly different cam; translation- not much. This is a 5.7L SOHC push rod engine- not exactly SOTA!

Isn't it possible that the magnificent 5L DOHC V10 in the E60 M5 can breathe a little better, have the ECU adjust the fuels trims and 25 rwhp result? I for one have no doubt it is possible. I always want data to confirm but I am not as cynical as others.
 
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