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RB Failure Discussion

Guys, good discussion. Different perspectives, points of views, conclusions and some agreement. Sad to see BMW fail in many areas of engineering for our M5's. They could have and should have done a much better build. In the end, who knows why they made the decisions they did. In any event, I don't see my M5 going out the door anytime soon. I will deal with the issues and cautions as enumerated in what I believe to be the priority. Good to have both empirical evidence as well as anecdotal. Competent decisions than can be made. Like Jcolley, I have yet to tune my M5. It is a 2008 model that I have had to date. Trying to learn about the other systems the best I can first. Stock, it gives me enough performance. Minor mods are in the future with relevance given to the discussion points raised in this post.
 

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IB DinanS2++ e60m5 6MT, Dogleg s38b38 e28m5 TT/ST3, e30 TT/ST5
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@BasedGod baseline your car as YOU see appropriate, which may or may not include rod bearing service. How much documented history to you have? Do you know the previous owner? How confident are you with a wrench? How long do you plan to keep your car?

I am 36,000 miles, post replacement, without going BOOM. My car never went boom, I just believe in maintenance.

It is really unfortunate that too many people are getting into these cars without fully understanding the level of commitment -- and dump them for pennies with looming deferred maintenance.

It is my opinion, after nearly 300,000 miles of driving m5s over 3 generations, that rod bearings are wear items and should be serviced as any other wear item: clutch, suspension/LCAs, wheel bearings, yada, yada, yada...and, as items wear from use/time/dry rot, they need to be serviced. The quicker people make the connection, the longer your s85 will last.

I replaced my s85 bearings at 84,000 miles because my Pb levels were high.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e6...cussion/290497-rod-bearings-84-000-miles.html
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e6...e-rod-bearings-replaced-17-000-miles-ago.html
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e6...e-rod-bearings-replaced-30-000-miles-ago.html

My decision was a no brainer. I understand it might not be as clear cut for other people.

Today, I am 36,000 miles POST preventive replacement, with about a dozen track days and no signs of wear. I plan on pulling them again in 14,000 miles for 5h1ts and giggles. I also let my warranty expire, unused, at 50,000 miles. Now, I'm at 120,000 miles on the odo.

My s85 is also my third (s38 and s62) ///Motorsports engine. The s38 was/is known for timing chain tensioner guide rail wear at about 80,000 to 100,000 miles. Not all s38s needed new chain tensioner guides. But, as an s38 owner, you have two choices: 1) replace the guides and timing chain as a maintenance item, or 2) wait for your chain to slip and face catastrophic failure. Personally, I went for a full rebuild (and stroker) as my preventative maintenance route.

My s62, I was tracking at 180,000 miles, on original VANOS and rod bearings. As was mentioned before, s62s had "issues" as well. My s62 was a healthy factory freak, while my s38 and s85 needed normal maintenance that is part and parcel to ///M ownership.

When the s62 was developed, ///M enthusiast b1tch3d and b1tch3d and moaned about the s62 "only" being an off-the-assembly-line modified m62 and not a hand built bespoke (s38) race engine. The next time around, ///Motorsport listened and gave us the bespoke s85: F1 inspired and exotic v10. Make no mistake, bespoke and high strung NA ///Motorsports engines require greater attention to detail and diligence.

Nothing has changed from the first m88/s38/s14 to the s85. ///Motorsport has always given us high maintenance engines.
 

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There are plenty of threads that show bearing wear on high mileage cars, no one knows when the most appropriate time to change them out is as it depends on many factors for instance driving habits, previous owner and warming up procedure but it is a wear and tear item, nothing lasts forever but when these go out it creates a major failure unlike some other wear and tear parts.


Just ask Troy how many he alone has seen come through his shop, this is not just some imaginary maintenance item that people do because it makes them happy.
 

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For reference, see this post

Note the even wear laterally across the entire surface of the bearing. This is what bearing wear looks like when it is properly lubricated. The day I see a set of bearings come out of an S85 that look like that, I'll eat crow.
 

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For reference, see this post

Note the even wear laterally across the entire surface of the bearing. This is what bearing wear looks like when it is properly lubricated. The day I see a set of bearings come out of an S85 that look like that, I'll eat crow.
He babies his car, always at the back of the pack at car meets :wink
 

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For reference, see this post

Note the even wear laterally across the entire surface of the bearing. This is what bearing wear looks like when it is properly lubricated. The day I see a set of bearings come out of an S85 that look like that, I'll eat crow.
Since I am by no means the expert that you are Jim, I posted in that thread wondering if they were similar tri-metal bearings to ours since those looked so clean for a 100,000+ mile car. Yes, part of it was the nice even wear across the entire lateral face of the bearing.

Wished more/any (since I haven't seen a set yet in all the threads I have gone through) of the bearings coming out of our S85's looked like that.

Oh well, forewarned is forearmed.

:cheers:

Jim
 

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ive never done blackstone. gonna do it next time.

what is the threshold or "more lead" in the analysis? does blackstone make rec for this engine based on the analysis?
I would not bother with a Blackstone report, had them done on mine and all came back good. Bearings were deep into the copper.

Its good for checking if coolant is in the oil and how much it has broken down.
 

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This **** needs to stop...

NO THEY ALL WILL NOT FAIL SUB 100K MILES. Go on auto trader and search, you'll find ~500 cars for sale and over half of them are north of 100k miles. Then go on zoomthelist or allofcraigs and search, you'll find so many cars without any mention of "rod bearings".

Then go on nasioc and iwsti and search. Their bottom ends are way more problematic than ours, and guess what their forum is just so ******* paranoid. Yet I still have many friends with over 100k miles on an STI stock bottom end.

FORUMS ARE A BREADING GROUND FOR PARANOIA.

I've been on this forum for years and I'm almost through with it. This RB talk is really out of control and guess what, no one is going to want to own an E60 because of people on this forum saying things like "Its a ticking time bomb" "The tws is syrup, run 0w40" "Oh man the problem is BMW for not putting nascar standard clearance in a high revving motor" "oh man, look at those wear patters, they look bad, i see copper! were all doomed!!!!!!"

Ive seen so many "bad" bearings bearings (replaced as PM) posted with what I see as normal wear patterns and no clearance measurements. The numbers are what matters, not judging a book by its cover. Hell, I saw a well respected user of the forums pulled a set of bearings out of a 15k motor that he rebuilt as a control and ran on a lighter oil, the bearings looked the same as 99% of the other pulled as PM. He then had the gall to say "those bearings would have never made it to 30k".

Spend some time on the E39 forum, a great deal of those users feel their cars have RB problems and guess what, that paranoia has settled down now that their cars are aging. Its very common to see an E39 with north of 150K miles now so no one worries anymore.

Every time I run into someone with an S85 car I chat. I talked to a guy with an IB 06 the other week and he had 120k. He had no clue that his motor "is a ticking time bomb" because he isnt on this forum. Guess what, he enjoys his car and tracks it.

This RB trend needs to stop before the E60 goes the way of the 996. There's a reason why that amazing generation has no resale value even though the failure rate wasn't that high. The problem was TALKED TO DEATH by enthusiasts. The failure rates on RB on these cars are nothing if you consider how many S85s are out there. Like 20k!!! Yet everyone who joins this forums posts something out of regret because now they're scared to own the car. Think about the people who browse without signing in! They're never going to buy one! Over the past two years I've seen the resale value of the E63 and E60 TANK. ANYONE WANT TO TAKE A GUESS WHY????

STOP, JUST STOP with the RB PARANOIA.

Feel free to find my thread I made not too long ago where I had dozens of s85 users comment their milage on a stock bottom end.

Buy an E60
ALWAYS USE 91 OR HIGHER OCTANE.
ALWAYS LET IT WARM UP BEFORE BEATING.
NEVER TRACK THE CAR ON "MINIMUM OIL LEVEL"
NEVER REDLINE IT AT IDLE TO HEAR THE SOUND
NEVER REDLINE IT WHEN COLD
ALWAYS USE APPROVED OIL and not whatever crap the conspiracy theorists suggest.
DONT REFLASH YOUR ECU WITH ONE OF THE MANY REVERSE ENGINEERED "TUNES" AVAILABLE.

Do this and the car will last a long time.
AMEN BROTHA!!!

Folks are really paranoid.

To echo above:
- Allow car to warm up/oil temp before ripping on it
- Use the "best" quality top tier gasoline available
- Change oil/filter often - every 3 to 4 months is good practice for daily commuters
- If high mileage car, use 15W-50 oil - I like Mobil 1 full synthetic
- Keep fuel system clean - pour in Pro-Foam or Lucas fuel system cleaner (use every couple of months or so) with full tank

That's it!

I've seen many owners applied the above suggestions [myself included] with S85 (M5's) with engines well above 125K miles and experienced NO issues whatsoever. :smile
 

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I would not bother with a Blackstone report, had them done on mine and all came back good. Bearings were deep into the copper.

Its good for checking if coolant is in the oil and how much it has broken down.
Yep a BS report on mine came back clean but when we took it apart it was already halfway through the copper :eek
 

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Blackstone

I have seen a few reports of clean blackstone's and then boom or someone doing a change after a clean blackston and still seeing very worn (read risky) bearings. Since my car only had 19,000 miles when purchased and I plan on running blackstones on every oil change I have done until I do the bearings at around 50,000, maybe we can see a pattern of when you need to worry. My last report was a little high in lead (am I eating through it?) and I will have a new one in a few days. Do you need to do a blackstone... no - does it help? Can't say for sure. I personally just like knowing as much as possible about what is going on with my motor.

:cheers:

Jim
 
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Purchased 08 with 15000 miles and a lot of maint. Records
When should I be worried about changing
Bearings most oil changes were done at dealers and a few at indy shops and last by me @ 18000
Thks
 

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Purchased 08 with 15000 miles and a lot of maint. Records
When should I be worried about changing
Bearings most oil changes were done at dealers and a few at indy shops and last by me @ 18000
Thks
Well as we do not know how the previous owner drove the car or if he did the proper warm up procedure it is hard to respond to your question but with such a low mileage car I think you will be fine for awhile.
 

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Thanks guys, love the opposing perspectives. Especially the anti-RB paranoia post.


I'm at 114,000 mi now and I plan on doing them at some point next year, probably early spring. I put on about 1,000 mi each month and I have elevated Pb in the Blackstone report.

I was freaking out for a while but I'm just going to take my chances and relax until they are changed. Maybe a bad idea, maybe not. The car is worth maybe $20k and perhaps $10k junked with blown engine?

Car is not tuned or tracked, nor driven like a grannie. Daily commuter 45 miles/day or variable traffic.

PS- JColley, I got f-ed by the dealer on a SMG III 7 speed repair. Flywheel, clutch, slave cylinder, SMG pump motor... ~$10k.

Didn't know better at the time.
 

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Thanks guys, love the opposing perspectives. Especially the anti-RB paranoia post.


I'm at 114,000 mi now and I plan on doing them at some point next year, probably early spring. I put on about 1,000 mi each month and I have elevated Pb in the Blackstone report.

I was freaking out for a while but I'm just going to take my chances and relax until they are changed. Maybe a bad idea, maybe not. The car is worth maybe $20k and perhaps $10k junked with blown engine?

Car is not tuned or tracked, nor driven like a grannie. Daily commuter 45 miles/day or variable traffic.

PS- JColley, I got f-ed by the dealer on a SMG III 7 speed repair. Flywheel, clutch, slave cylinder, SMG pump motor... ~$10k.

Didn't know better at the time.

Don't feel bad, a lot of us did. Only in the last few years as a community have we begun to dissect things and spread the knowledge. Unfortunately it's too late for the warranty companies to turn back now. :/
 
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