BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

41 - 59 of 59 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,022 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Thanks, that makes sense. Thought the numbers were a bit rich for purely a piggy back tune. Exhaust & intakes will account for most of the torque gap. Am amazed they get away with charging so much for a tuning box. I can accept they're a well known brand in the US, but i'd be wanting a Custom Tune & then some for that kind of outlay. I guess it's market forces though.

Am surprised they state an extra 15bhp from the CP post piggy back. Whilst the standard cars differ by 15bhp i'm surprised Dinan can get an extra 15bhp post tune as isn't the power difference in the stock cars purely software related? Wasn't aware of any hardware differences under the bonnet?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,022 Posts
Thanks, that makes sense. Thought the numbers were a bit rich for purely a piggy back tune. Exhaust & intakes will account for most of the torque gap. Am amazed they get away with charging so much for a tuning box. I can accept they're a well known brand in the US, but i'd be wanting a Custom Tune & then some for that kind of outlay. I guess it's market forces though.



Am surprised they state an extra 15bhp from the CP post piggy back. Whilst the standard cars differ by 15bhp i'm surprised Dinan can get an extra 15bhp post tune as isn't the power difference in the stock cars purely software related? Wasn't aware of any hardware differences under the bonnet?

Dinan products are on sale at the moment. I guess the development costs for the added computers in Dinantronic are a factor in his pricing. I am completely satisfied with my installation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Dinan products are on sale at the moment. I guess the development costs for the added computers in Dinantronic are a factor in his pricing. I am completely satisfied with my installation.
Still seems awfully expensive for an off the shelf tune. I can accept being a piggy back tune they have production costs for the units but once the 1st unit is developed/produced, very little changes. How much customisation/custom tuning takes place for individual cars?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Thanks, that makes sense. Thought the numbers were a bit rich for purely a piggy back tune. Exhaust & intakes will account for most of the torque gap. Am amazed they get away with charging so much for a tuning box. I can accept they're a well known brand in the US, but i'd be wanting a Custom Tune & then some for that kind of outlay. I guess it's market forces though.



Am surprised they state an extra 15bhp from the CP post piggy back. Whilst the standard cars differ by 15bhp i'm surprised Dinan can get an extra 15bhp post tune as isn't the power difference in the stock cars purely software related? Wasn't aware of any hardware differences under the bonnet?

Dinan products are on sale at the moment. I guess the development costs for the added computers in Dinantronic are a factor in his pricing. I am completely satisfied with my installation.
The main reason why Dinan products are more expensive than the others is the warranty. Dinan matches the BMW new car warranty in length. Accordingly if BMW disclaims warranty coverage on a repair because it has concluded that a Dinan mod has caused the repair Dinan will cover it. Dinan's main competition, BMS, offers no such warranty which is why their tuning products are fraction of the cost. Personally if I'm driving $100,000 car I would want the warranty.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
756 Posts
Mine is a physical ECU tune. Took about 8hrs to amend the relevant lines of code & still a couple of hours to fine tune the remap applied a few weeks ago. I'd not touch a tuning box or piggy back tune with a barge pole on an F10 M5. Fine for a 320d but not an £80k motor.
I don't understand your position on piggybacks--have you had a bad experience or did other evidence lead you to conclude this?

This is my second F10 M5 and my fourth F10 since their launch; the other two F10s being 550Xis. I had Dinan Stage 3 on the first of the 550s and was happy... until someone told me about the BMS JB4 piggyback. So I bought one and stacked it on top of my Dinan Stage 3 and added a little less overboost than the BMS-norm--the car felt different in a very positive way and the numbers backed that (I'm afraid I forget the specifics, it's a while back).

When I sold my first F10 550 and got another new one, I simply pulled the piggyback-box out of the first 550 and installed in the second one--job done. I cranked up the boost this time knowing that I was now running stock-boost due to the lack of Dinan and ran the car for a few days. The new car with the BMS piggyback alone was significantly quicker than the Dinan only mod and exactly the same as the stacked Dinan + reduced BMS--so what was the $5,000 for that I'd spent on a Dinan ECU tune and an exhaust (there was certainly not $1,000s worth of exhaust note in there or drivability gains--they drove the same--and as for the warranty, I can take the piggyback out in about 10mins should that ever prove necessary but my dealerships don't care, perhaps others do, though).

Finally, I decided I wanted yet more power and got an F10 M5. Again, I took the very same BMS-piggyback box out of my 2nd 550, configured its firmware via my laptop changing the setting named "Future Use D" to 1" per Terry's (the "B" in BMS) instructions and set the boost to +3.5psi. I followed folks' guidance on the forums and performed a few 40-80mph 3rd+ gear runs numerous time a day and let it adapt. Finally, I took the M5s for a few independent dyno runs and they've consistently put down 620rwhp on pump 92octane gas.

So, in short, I don't do Dinan anymore.

To date, I've bought just ONE box from BurgerTuning and it's moved from car to car to car with me performing perfectly every time in every vehicle with no additional out-of-pocket expense beyond the original box and new cabling when I moved to an M5 (total BMS cost to date across all three cars = $500).

My first-hand and 5+ years experience with Dinan, with BMS, with four F10s and well-over 200,000 miles leads me to conclude that, at least in this particular car and comparison, there's just no reason to spend the money on an ECU tune when the piggybacks yield better gains and to my first-hand experience, offer the same levels of reliability.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
The main reason why Dinan products are more expensive than the others is the warranty. Dinan matches the BMW new car warranty in length. Accordingly if BMW disclaims warranty coverage on a repair because it has concluded that a Dinan mod has caused the repair Dinan will cover it. Dinan's main competition, BMS, offers no such warranty which is why their tuning products are fraction of the cost. Personally if I'm driving $100,000 car I would want the warranty.
Totally agree & is why I'd only ever use a quality tuner who offers such a warranty. Am surprised BMS offer nothing but I guess you get what you pay for.

Just to clarify as I may have misunderstood an earlier post, the Dinan warranty is NOT a BMW warranty as someone else mentioned? It just offers coverage in the event of BMW throwing out a claim due to Dinans work? That makes more sense if correct.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
I don't understand your position on piggybacks--have you had a bad experience or did other evidence lead you to conclude this?

This is my second F10 M5 and my fourth F10 since their launch; the other two F10s being 550Xis. I had Dinan Stage 3 on the first of the 550s and was happy... until someone told me about the BMS JB4 piggyback. So I bought one and stacked it on top of my Dinan Stage 3 and added a little less overboost than the BMS-norm--the car felt different in a very positive way and the numbers backed that (I'm afraid I forget the specifics, it's a while back).

When I sold my first F10 550 and got another new one, I simply pulled the piggyback-box out of the first 550 and installed in the second one--job done. I cranked up the boost this time knowing that I was now running stock-boost due to the lack of Dinan and ran the car for a few days. The new car with the BMS piggyback alone was significantly quicker than the Dinan only mod and exactly the same as the stacked Dinan + reduced BMS--so what was the $5,000 for that I'd spent on a Dinan ECU tune and an exhaust (there was certainly not $1,000s worth of exhaust note in there or drivability gains--they drove the same--and as for the warranty, I can take the piggyback out in about 10mins should that ever prove necessary but my dealerships don't care, perhaps others do, though).

Finally, I decided I wanted yet more power and got an F10 M5. Again, I took the very same BMS-piggyback box out of my 2nd 550, configured its firmware via my laptop changing the setting named "Future Use D" to 1" per Terry's (the "B" in BMS) instructions and set the boost to +3.5psi. I followed folks' guidance on the forums and performed a few 40-80mph 3rd+ gear runs numerous time a day and let it adapt. Finally, I took the M5s for a few independent dyno runs and they've consistently put down 620rwhp on pump 92octane gas.

So, in short, I don't do Dinan anymore.

To date, I've bought just ONE box from BurgerTuning and it's moved from car to car to car with me performing perfectly every time in every vehicle with no additional out-of-pocket expense beyond the original box and new cabling when I moved to an M5 (total BMS cost to date across all three cars = $500).

My first-hand and 5+ years experience with Dinan, with BMS, with four F10s and well-over 200,000 miles leads me to conclude that, at least in this particular car and comparison, there's just no reason to spend the money on an ECU tune when the piggybacks yield better gains and to my first-hand experience, offer the same levels of reliability.
Pure & simple i don't want a stock tune on my car & I don't have the know how to start messing about with my own cars parameters. I prefer a custom tune that's bespoke to my individual car & given no 2 stock M5's appear to have the same outputs I'd pretty sure it's a far safer option to. My car's output is just shy of 700bhp from purely the custom tune, so as far as i can tell is comparable if not better than the current piggy back systems on the market as Dinan's stage 2 claims require new intakes & an exhaust which alone are likely contributing 25-30bhp. I also have the top speed limiter removed which is something I believe none of the piggy back systems offer?.

I'm happy to pay a premium for a bespoke product that's fully warranted. I wouldn't however be comfortable paying Dinan money purely for the warranty given a virtually identical product can be bought for considerably less.

The other reason which is the same to a degree to your preference is knowledge & trust. I've used my tuner on 4 high power vehicles & they've always exceeded their advertised claims & provide a level of Customer Service & warranty that's second to none & for that reason I'd again pay a slight premium.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
756 Posts
Pure & simple i don't want a stock tune on my car & I don't have the know how to start messing about with my own cars parameters. I prefer a custom tune that's bespoke to my individual car & given no 2 stock M5's appear to have the same outputs I'd pretty sure it's a far safer option to. My car's output is just shy of 700bhp from purely the custom tune, so as far as i can tell is comparable if not better than the current piggy back systems on the market as Dinan's stage 2 claims require new intakes & an exhaust which alone are likely contributing 25-30bhp. I also have the top speed limiter removed which is something I believe none of the piggy back systems offer?.

I'm happy to pay a premium for a bespoke product that's fully warranted. I wouldn't however be comfortable paying Dinan money purely for the warranty given a virtually identical product can be bought for considerably less.

The other reason which is the same to a degree to your preference is knowledge & trust. I've used my tuner on 4 high power vehicles & they've always exceeded their advertised claims & provide a level of Customer Service & warranty that's second to none & for that reason I'd again pay a slight premium.
Commenting in general on the Dinan aspects (and, again, from first-hand experience): I tried exploiting Dinan's warranty once when I had intermittent hiccups in the drivetrain--I never succeeded as they and BMW argued back and forth as to who was at fault all the while leaving me with a broken car and no loaner--the warranty looks good on paper but wait until you try and exercise it. Ultimately, BMW just took the fix but they never accepted the blame. C'est la vie.

Anyhoo--so I'm guessing we're quoting horsepower at the crank as do Dinan (it's a bigger number I guess so it always sounds better). The number I've cited for both my cars is based on wheel-horsepower and that requires a little bit of maths(adding an "s" for the fellow Brits) to extrapolate the crank horsepower by factoring in drive-train loss. The common thinking here seems to be 15% which means that my cars have both put down virtually identical numbers from two different dynos where their common crank-horsepower = ~720. Of course, these are just numbers (but they're fun to determine and play "top trumps" with :eek:).

The fastest 1/4 mile F10 M5 I know of has the BMS tune and ran 11.07secs and 130mph I believe.

I guess the point I'm circling around is that the power of various BMS-tuned cars (of which I've had two personally) appear to be much more consistent than your tuner would have us believe. That said, given that your tune seems to be a UK-only thing, I doubt we'll ever be able to put a BMS-tuned M5 and yours side-by-side (short of me shipping my piggyback and you shipping your engine :) ... that's a shame, that would be a lot of fun!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Perhaps u misunderstood as my tuner has made no comment regarding any other tuner or tune option, those were purely my observations & thoughts.

I can't recall what losses they applied on the dyno dynamics RR when it ran but the increase over stated stock BHP was 131bhp & about 80lbsft torque. That's with purely the custom tune as my car has no other modifications. If I was to add an aftermarket exhaust & intakes, those headline figures with a revised tune to take the hardware changes into account would rise.

Totally agree though that these are just figures. My car had a few minor tweaks today which it's believed extracted a little more torque & smoothed out the torque curve a little. Saying that it was immense before but it now peaks a little lower & lasts a little longer. Didn't have time to put her on the RR this time so i'll have to wait until next time I'm local to get the numbers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
756 Posts
Perhaps u misunderstood as my tuner has made no comment regarding any other tuner or tune option, those were purely my observations & thoughts.

I can't recall what losses they applied on the dyno dynamics RR when it ran but the increase over stated stock BHP was 131bhp & about 80lbsft torque. That's with purely the custom tune as my car has no other modifications. If I was to add an aftermarket exhaust & intakes, those headline figures with a revised tune to take the hardware changes into account would rise.

Totally agree though that these are just figures. My car had a few minor tweaks today which it's believed extracted a little more torque & smoothed out the torque curve a little. Saying that it was immense before but it now peaks a little lower & lasts a little longer. Didn't have time to put her on the RR this time so i'll have to wait until next time I'm local to get the numbers.
Oh, I see--I thought you were re-stating the tuner's explanation.... got it. It'd be interesting to ask the tuner what level of drive-train loss they are accounting for when they cite their numbers. BMW's numbers list our vehicles at 575hp I think at the crank--we're both seeing/saying 700+ crank-hp so both of these tunes are (relative to manufacturer BS-numbers anyway) providing 120+hp increase.

Do you know if they offer remote tunes out of interest? Perhaps Ill call and ask.

I have no other mods on M5 either beyond having removed those silly charcoal filters (and adding spacers but I'm quite convinced they're not making me go any faster--I just look better doing it).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Oh, I see--I thought you were re-stating the tuner's explanation.... got it. It'd be interesting to ask the tuner what level of drive-train loss they are accounting for when they cite their numbers. BMW's numbers list our vehicles at 575hp I think at the crank--we're both seeing/saying 700+ crank-hp so both of these tunes are (relative to manufacturer BS-numbers anyway) providing 120+hp increase.

Do you know if they offer remote tunes out of interest? Perhaps Ill call and ask.

I have no other mods on M5 either beyond having removed those silly charcoal filters (and adding spacers but I'm quite convinced they're not making me go any faster--I just look better doing it).
Mine would be slightly lower stock as my M5 is not a C/P so the published stock BHP is only 560.

They do tune outside the UK (not remotely) & the owner is currently in Florida tuning cars. Not sure what he's tuning but they do travel to the U.S., Middle East & Far East.

When I have the final tweaks applied early next year & she gets another run on the RR I will enquire about the level of drivetrain loss they're applying. Needless to say, the extra power/torque is extremely addictive & the midrange pull is insane:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
756 Posts
Mine would be slightly lower stock as my M5 is not a C/P so the published stock BHP is only 560.

They do tune outside the UK (not remotely) & the owner is currently in Florida tuning cars. Not sure what he's tuning but they do travel to the U.S., Middle East & Far East.

When I have the final tweaks applied early next year & she gets another run on the RR I will enquire about the level of drivetrain loss they're applying. Needless to say, the extra power/torque is extremely addictive & the midrange pull is insane:)
Good to know.

There's one aspect here that we've not taken into account when contrasting the numbers these tunes generate--British gasoline is better. Sure, you're paying through the nose for it but so would I for a tank of 99 octane fuel from Tescos. The best that most of us get here in the States is 91 or 92octane which limits the overboost we can tap into. At 99 octane, I suspect we'd all be doubling from +3psi to +6psi--I shudder with joy to think what that would do to rwhp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,175 Posts
Discussion Starter #54
Good to know.

There's one aspect here that we've not taken into account when contrasting the numbers these tunes generate--British gasoline is better. Sure, you're paying through the nose for it but so would I for a tank of 99 octane fuel from Tescos. The best that most of us get here in the States is 91 or 92octane which limits the overboost we can tap into. At 99 octane, I suspect we'd all be doubling from +3psi to +6psi--I shudder with joy to think what that would do to rwhp.
Limey, where is Wa are you? Im in the Bellevue and would love to feel the difference between a tuned M5 and stock.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
756 Posts
Limey, where is Wa are you? Im in the Bellevue and would love to feel the difference between a tuned M5 and stock.
I live out north a bit but work in Redmond. I'd be happy to meet and show you the car some time.

I tried PMing but apparently I've got too few posts on this forum--not sure if you can PM me and enable at least a PM-chat between the two of us (not sure if it works that way).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
756 Posts
I live out north a bit but work in Redmond. I'd be happy to meet and show you the car some time.

I tried PMing but apparently I've got too few posts on this forum--not sure if you can PM me and enable at least a PM-chat between the two of us (not sure if it works that way).
Tried to reply to the PM you sent me, still blocked. A few more posts to go before that lights up for me.

I did send you an email but haven't heard back. FYI in case it's in your junk folder.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Bump for any updates (re 2014 e63s vs 2014 m5)....Interestingly nobody really shared or discussed real world reliability concerns or issues. My mechanic works on both BMWs and MBZ and is telling me to stay clear of the f10 m5. I have searched wide and far and cannot seem to find any significant data (other than the easy f10 oil pump issue). Any thoughts or perspective on reliability?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
932 Posts
There has been a few popped motors in the f10
Some due to dodgy tunes and people pushing the envelope to far

I have an e60 and f10

Both have been fairly reliable however my compulsive need for preventative maintenance has been costly more so on the e60
Money wasted im not sure
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
There has been a few popped motors in the f10
Some due to dodgy tunes and people pushing the envelope to far

I have an e60 and f10

Both have been fairly reliable however my compulsive need for preventative maintenance has been costly more so on the e60
Money wasted im not sure
The 2014 m5 I am looking at had the motor replaced at ~27k miles (cylinder 5 failure). This is a 100% stock car.
 
41 - 59 of 59 Posts
Top