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Discussion Starter #1
that i am tired of waiting. the car was delayed, then delayed again in europe, then it prolly will be delayed in the us some more...

bmw might be creating fine cars, but their design provisioning, production logistics and expectation management/ communications need improvement.

grrrrrrr


alex
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I have to agree 110%. On every new car they have launched since last 5 years, they have been late or problems on logistics. For instance in UK:


E46 M3 (2001) - engine, 19" wheels not available immediately

E46 M3 CSL (2003) - delay in launch, wrong xenons fitted, wrong wheels fitted to car

E60 M5 (200???) - delay in 1st delivery, delay in second, lack of information/communication

Maybe BMW develops superb products but getting them onto the market is absolutely awful and in my company I work for - we probably see no bonuses paid for such customer fiascos. But the brand is so strong that it probably can shield this - I for sure we go non-BMW next.
 

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I hate to say that but I think BMW is giving in the challenge with other rivals in any aspect :sad2: :sad3: :sad2:I would say they're ruining their own reputation.
 

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to the ones complaining in this post:

1) Well then u had to choose for Audi next time, and u will notice that is worst than BMW in all aspect, not only in delay.

2) What do u rather want to:
- have your car now with an engine that will propably be damaged due to the oil pump?
- wait 1-2 monthes more and this problem resolved?????

Does your mother never told u to be patient in life? u act like if u just wanted to have your toy right now, just to say u have it, to play with it 10 days after that to put it in your garage and don't touch anymore.

You can't complain about BMW HQ's attitude. They delayed the deliveries to give a finished product, if you don't understand this, that's sad.
 

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It's not so simple Sank. The problem is lack of communication. There have countless delays above and beyond the "promised" delivery dates which really annoys me.

The development time for the car has been far too long given that the M5 was meant to have been developed from day 1 alongside the whole E60 project. BMW showed the concept M5 in Geneva in March 2004 and the road cars should have been with us a year later.

It's just another mess like the CSL fiasco. We are buying the cars because of they are superior products, the rest of the BMW experience has been very poor. They just don't care about the customer like they should.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Sank_ch said:
ah, you are missing the bigger picture my friend. remember- all is relative and it has nothing to do with me. or you. but it has to do with "us". we dont know much about how the bmw products are created, or how the audis, merc and even skodas for all i care are born. we are ignorant. but what we do know is that the other players set their consumer expectations and then - they deliver. on time. like clockwork. plain and simple. yes, it just happens that i am a sucker for the bmw car-building philosophy and i like their finished products. but that does not mean that i am not also a businessman that sees how things are done at the other camps and compares. the lack of staffing is not an excuse. bmw has enough money to size up its departments as they see fit. if they think they can keep up with the competition by employing say only one engineer- so be it. however, i expect that engineer to establish a deadline and deliver. on time. every time. i'd rather have a deadline in 1 year than in 2 months and get it bumped 6 times- get my drift? porsche for example are even smaller. yet, they deliver like clockwork and it is always known when their new cars will be out.

all i am saying is that people get in trouble for managing customer expectations the way bmw does. thats all.

... and lastly- i am far for complaining- i am just observing and sharing. i have plenty of opportunities to play with car-toys and i am not "itching" for the m5. i would love to have it as a daily driver (which will hopefully happen some time this year), but i am way past the "gotta have it" stage in life ;)

also, just a gut feeling, i am not sure we've heard the last on the delays (especially for the us) from bmw. i hope i am wrong.

alex
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Ashok Arora said:
The development time for the car has been far too long given that the M5 was meant to have been developed from day 1 alongside the whole E60 project. BMW showed the concept M5 in Geneva in March 2004 and the road cars should have been with us a year later.
For me, this hits dead center. We saw M5 development mules at almost the exact same time as the E60 mules, and BMW made no secret of the fact that the M5 was being developed at the same time. I think even the regular E60 shows that.

Beyond that, had BMW not had delay after delay, the cars would be released worldwide by now, and I would probably have not had so much time to think about SMG, and have it anyway.

I think the mistake, which the M group is responsible for, is they spend so long releasing the "perfect" car. I think it would have made much more sense to release the car without every single bell and whistle, and then add upgrades and updates to the car over the lifetime of the model. Instead, they release a car with ALOT of new technology, and go figure, they are having issues from it. What changes/updates did the E39 get? Or the E46? Not much.
 

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Ashok and vndkshn --

I disagree with you both.

First, I suspect that the longer gestation of the M models compared to Mercedes and other competitors is due to the very aspect we all laud and expect -- the completeness of the car in the categories of power AND handling. New AMG models stream out of Merc's doors because it doesn't take too much thought, testing or refinement to slap an existing hugely-powerful engine onto an existing frame and gussy it up with bigger wheels, tires and a thicker anti-sway bar. This is exactly the approach for which Mercedes has been criticized here and elsewhere, and it is exactly BMW's dedication to all-around performance that makes us prefer its products.

Second, I believe that BMW has met its publicly announced release targets for the new M5. We tend to quickly forget that much of what is discussed here is the product of rumor and alleged "inside" information. We then hold BMW to the plans it allegedy made but to which it never committed. BMW NA has said for months that it expects the M5 to become available in the US "in late 2005." All indications are that we still are on track.

Third, I would prefer not to have BMW make upgrades to the car every few months. If I am going to pay over $80,000 for the car, I don't want it to lack some feature that becomes available a week after mine is built. Not only would that be annoying, but it would hurt resale values. So, in sum, while I agree that the waiting is frustrating, the benefit of the wait, presumably, is a well-sorted car with as few flaws as possible given the amount of new technology.

Where I do agree is that BMW could accomplish much with better communication. Although it cannot be held to assumptions made on internet forums regarding release times, the company must recognize that the flow of information (and disinformation) is much more rampant now than it was just five years ago. It also should recognize that it is catering to an enthusiast base that is spending tremendous sums on its products. It can engender more loyalty and much more satisfaction with more information delivered more timely.
 

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360bhp said:
I have to agree 110%. On every new car they have launched since last 5 years, they have been late or problems on logistics. For instance in UK:


E46 M3 (2001) - engine, 19" wheels not available immediately

E46 M3 CSL (2003) - delay in launch, wrong xenons fitted, wrong wheels fitted to car

E60 M5 (200???) - delay in 1st delivery, delay in second, lack of information/communication

Maybe BMW develops superb products but getting them onto the market is absolutely awful and in my company I work for - we probably see no bonuses paid for such customer fiascos. But the brand is so strong that it probably can shield this - I for sure we go non-BMW next.
Are you telling me that NO OTHER car company i.e. MB, Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, etc. has delayed or been late in production delivery???
 

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BlackBM said:
Are you telling me that NO OTHER car company i.e. MB, Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, etc. has delayed or been late in production delivery???
i am sure they all do, occasionally.

but M pretty much had trouble introducing every single car for as fas as i can remanber.
 

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Agreed. However the European laucn have been somewhat delayed. In Geneva 2004 (March) the word was September October 2004. However I rather have BMW M to avoid the M3 E46 debacle.

And let's not forget: it is a hugely complex engine.

MRichmond said:
Where I do agree is that BMW could accomplish much with better communication. Although it cannot be held to assumptions made on internet forums regarding release times, the company must recognize that the flow of information (and disinformation) is much more rampant now than it was just five years ago. It also should recognize that it is catering to an enthusiast base that is spending tremendous sums on its products. It can engender more loyalty and much more satisfaction with more information delivered more timely.
 

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Gustav said:
And let's not forget: it is a hugely complex engine.
That is exactly my point. They introduce a new engine, transmission, computer, electronics (hud/m drive, etc), brakes, EDC, how many shift programs..... the list goes on and on. Statistically, they are asking for trouble. I have a feeling this car is going to end up being a pain in the butt for several generations.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
vndkshn said:
I have a feeling this car is going to end up being a pain in the butt for several generations.
thats a given.

said that- i am willing to live with the problems- because i (like most of the ppl here) am a car fanatic. however, the majority of the bmw clientelle would not put up with this methinks.

alex
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AJ said:
thats a given.

said that- i am willing to live with the problems- because i (like most of the ppl here) am a car fanatic. however, the majority of the bmw clientelle would not put up with this methinks.
Put up with what? Let's wait and see if there are real durability or warranty issues before we condemn the car based on assumptions. If you are referring to release delays, such as they are, "the majority of the BMW clientele" is not nearly as atuned to the rumor mill as we are, so it likely will not perceive much of an issue. And the rest of us, like you say, will live with it.
 

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An "E65 / E63 AMG" would not perform significantly better on an advance track than an E55 AMG.

test said:
It'll be funny if Benz will unveil their new E63 in 2006... just in time when M5s gonna be out.
 

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test said:
It'll be funny if Benz will unveil their new E63 in 2006... just in time when M5s gonna be out.
i don't know what you mean by this statement.

M5 has already been out in Europe and many part of the world ever since March. and will be available in North America this Oct. whereas, i don't see MB introducing the new E AMG before 2007 MY.

right now, the only problem with M5 at the moment is that the demand is hugely high, while supply is extremly low.
 

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As a longtime M owner (but not currently), I just wanted to share some thoughts on communication. I really feel Audi did an excellent job with communication with the RS6. Shortly after placing your order, you received a leather RS6 embossed binder with login info for the RS6 site. Once you logged on, you could track the production schedule of your car--from the time the body and drivetrain components were entering the factory all the way through assembly. You were then informed by email when the car was heading to the dock, when it was on the boat, and when it arrived in port in Houston. Before the car went into production, you were allowed to change options, etc. Of course, this level of detail was probably possible because only 1000 cars were delivered to the US between July and December 2003. But I think I've seen production numbers of 2000 M5's being delivered a year, so this number is not too different. I do think there is some room for BMW to improve it's business practices in terms of customer service/communication--if not for the average customer, certainly for the M brand customer because we're the only ones who are probably twisted enough to care about such information. Again, just mho.

Meanwhile, I am speaking to my BMW salesrep about as much as I do some of my family members to squeeze whatever info I can get out of them these days. Color swatches for M5 arrived 2 weeks ago, no other info since. They are pretty confident we will order in July, but man, that's going to be a long wait until the holiday season! (At least Santa is bringing something better than ties this year)
 

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i think most people's points are valid, just different points of view.

now, in the point of view of the M engineers... what would theirs be? i am sure the BMW AG and everyone else is putting ****loads of pressure on them to bring out a masterpiece that is the centerpoint of the marque, toys of the rich and famous, and wetdreams of teenage boys.

may be the receipe is not as simple as those that AMG adopted (which is actually better for sales and PR), or Audi (no DSG for the RS4? they are playing it safe? or just marketing?)

on the marketing terms it was plain stupid to leave the M5 owners empty when some of the leases are over, or when the warranty expires, or they are just tired of their old M5.

delays are bad for everybody. just with the flow of information nowadays everything gets excacerbrated whether it is good or bad.

the good thing is, you still have a choice - if you wanna wait, keep waiting. if you don't wanna wait, you can get your AMG, Porsches, Audi or like me, Maserati.
 
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