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Discussion Starter #1
Took my M5 for routine inspection at a BMW dealership and was just crushed with the news that my secondary air was clooged with carbon and to expect $8000.00 repair to r&r Heads and pick carbon out of heads. Now as I understand it this secondary air is pumped into the exhaust port to rid of excess fuel before the catalyst for emission testing. The check engine light
will come on due to inbalance of fuel delivery mixtures between bank 1 and
bank 2.
I am faced with paying this money and not getting better performance just
cleaner air which is killing me!
I would love to increase performance but not spend another $10,000 on cam and valve angle seating.
Or leave the **** thing alone with the check engine light on and hope that
it will only lean out fuel mixture during warm up.
anyone have any suggestions? magic wands?
 

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Can't help with this one.... Yipes - and I thjought that my $775 bill yesterday at BMW was heavy. Sorry to hear of the problem-What little I know, I'd leave the engine light on.
 

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How old is your car and how many miles? There is a separate, federally mandated warranty covering emissions equipment that might come into play here. I wouldn't quite concede yet that this all has to be on your nickel.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
2000 M5 just turned 60,000. I approached that subject with BMWNA and they
said there is a difference between a federal mandated emission requirement as opposed to a state required standard to meet higher standards do not applyto the 80,000 mile federal standard.
 

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I approached that subject with BMWNA and they
said there is a difference between a federal mandated emission requirement as opposed to a state required standard to meet higher standards do not applyto the 80,000 mile federal standard.
Sounds like baloney. There are no state mandated-only pieces of emissions equipment on BMWs as far as I know. If a piece of equipment is put there so as to comply with fed emissions stds and if that piece fails, it doesn't matter whether the emissions out the pipe are within fed spec but outside state spec. A failure of a federally mandated piece of equipment should still be covered. I'd continue to push, up thru the regional level to BMWNA if need be.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
That is what I would like to know? where is the carbon coming from? only 2 possibilities... burning gas or oil? oil consumption on the car is about 1 quart/1200 miles which I understand is not terrible. The bottom end is tight and passed compression leak down test. I drive in such a way that when the car is warmed up, I wind out the egine quite often. (why I own the car in the 1st place). The secondary air port is almost completely clogged.
 

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BMWsilverstreak said:
Took my M5 for routine inspection at a BMW dealership and was just crushed with the news that my secondary air was clooged with carbon and to expect $8000.00 repair to r&r
First off, the 8yr/80K emissions warranty applies only to a specific list of parts including the ECU and the cats, certainly not anything like this.

Still, $8K for this sounds ridiculous. Go talk to someone other than the dealer.
 

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JEM said:
Still, $8K for this sounds ridiculous. Go talk to someone other than the dealer.
You would think $89/hr and then however many hours it would take, plus parts. I try to ask the rate first and then ask how many hours it would take for a particular job. I believe, they have universal time standards on each type of repair. If this is true, then when you call around, you can see if someone is screwing around with you on the time based on a given rate/hour. Time should the a fixed number and pay is the variable. They could also say you need more parts than you really need. It'll save you a few bucks, but I doubt much. I've been screwed a few times because I forget to get a written quote before starting the work.
 

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i'm wondering what alerted your dealer to this problem since you say you were in for a routine inspection? This problem has been brought up here before, porsche had a similar problem on the 993 iirc. Did they find a code or anything that is leading them down this path?

Like JEM said, the 8/80 emissions warranty covers a few specific parts, not a potential design flaw...
 

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Read the warranty booklet. BMW warrants the emission equipments for 6 years, 70k miles. They list a specific items as covered. Don't recall if your situation fits the bill.

Good luck.

CP
 

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Usually revving out the engine will sometimes clean a carbon build up. I do not know about this for sure, but there is a product called seafoam that may help you out. Check into seeing if its M5 safe.
 

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I had EXACTLY the same problem with my '00 M5.

My SES light was coming on all the time and each time, the computer indicated an excessive carbon buildup related to the heads.

Here's the deal - BMW is aware of the head problem - an early model design flaw that was corrected on later models.

MY problem is that the flaw did not manifest itself until I had 88,000 miles on the car and, I admitted that I had used a high octane LEADED gas on 2 or 3 fillups that they said may have contributed to the problem.

Even so, although my car was obviously out of warranty, I called BMWNA and they decided that they would replace the heads - all parts which came to about $4000 and I would pay for the labor which was around $2500.

Of course, the M5 was the 6th BMW that I purchased at this dealership which didn't hurt.

I thought that was fair (I guess) and now at 98,000 miles, I have not had a problem since.

Depending on your mileage, you will have to raise a little hell but BMW "should" work with you on this.

Good luck.
 

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tranck said:
Depending on your mileage, you will have to raise a little hell but BMW "should" work with you on this.

Good luck.
The only way IMO you can ever get any satisfactory results from any situation!
 

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If they(BMWNA or the dealer) don't cover this problem, I'd propose that the dealer/shop consider carbon REMOVAL. Yes, there may be some sort of design flaw, but if it crops up every 60K(or more) miles, why not just remove and clean the offending parts. Today's shops & mechanics are more parts replacers than mechanics. I can't imagine a cleaning of the heads/whatever would run more than a K or two. JMHO. Oh, and then sell it within 30K miles.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
after checking into the labor- book estimates labor for R&R heads on M5
at 58 hours to 49 hours depending on which reference you are using.
for the $8000.00 they are not replacing the heads just drillling the carbon out and replacing head gaskets and bolts that add up to $1200.00 in parts.
depending on what time you use that adds up $4300.00 to $5100.00 labor at $89./hr plus the time needed to clean the heads plus parts. Thats a lot of labor to R&R heads.
 

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tranck said:
I had EXACTLY the same problem with my '00 M5.

My SES light was coming on all the time and each time, the computer indicated an excessive carbon buildup related to the heads.

Here's the deal - BMW is aware of the head problem - an early model design flaw that was corrected on later models.

MY problem is that the flaw did not manifest itself until I had 88,000 miles on the car and, I admitted that I had used a high octane LEADED gas on 2 or 3 fillups that they said may have contributed to the problem.

Even so, although my car was obviously out of warranty, I called BMWNA and they decided that they would replace the heads - all parts which came to about $4000 and I would pay for the labor which was around $2500.

Of course, the M5 was the 6th BMW that I purchased at this dealership which didn't hurt.

I thought that was fair (I guess) and now at 98,000 miles, I have not had a problem since.

Depending on your mileage, you will have to raise a little hell but BMW "should" work with you on this.

Good luck.

Do you know when the correction was made to the heads? Just curious. My S62 is an early production 2001 so I am wondering if I am going to run into this problem too. :sad3: Silverstreak, very sorry to hear this is happening to you. Hopefully BMWNA and the dealer will help you out with the problem. Otherwise, I would find a quality piece of electrical tape and cover that light. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #19
mottati said:
i'm wondering what alerted your dealer to this problem since you say you were in for a routine inspection? This problem has been brought up here before, porsche had a similar problem on the 993 iirc. Did they find a code or anything that is leading them down this path?

Like JEM said, the 8/80 emissions warranty covers a few specific parts, not a potential design flaw...
They found the problem with the plug in diagnostics (OBC) which indicated that 1 bank is reading "RICH" compared to the other bank. PA allows you to pass which tailpipe snifer this year but next year the OBC rules. The exhuast
port was not getting enough air through the secondary air port and the Oxygen sensor is reading no air.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Jessem said:
If they(BMWNA or the dealer) don't cover this problem, I'd propose that the dealer/shop consider carbon REMOVAL. Yes, there may be some sort of design flaw, but if it crops up every 60K(or more) miles, why not just remove and clean the offending parts. Today's shops & mechanics are more parts replacers than mechanics. I can't imagine a cleaning of the heads/whatever would run more than a K or two. JMHO. Oh, and then sell it within 30K miles.
That is the point exactly...they are just taking off the heads cleaning and replacing the same heads with new head gaskets and bolts, That is what is costing $8000.00. IT would much easier to take if they were replacing the heads at that cost.
 
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