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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all -- first post in the E60 board, I'm looking at a relatively high mile (115k) 07 6MT and just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything when I go to inspect the car. I've done a few searches of this board and from what I can tell:

  • I should check the service records (if any)
  • have a good shop do a PPI including vanos solenoid check
  • I am aware of rod bearing concerns, not sure the best way to check this? have heard mentions of glitter in the oil filter reservoir...
  • check the car's cold start, how it idles cold and at operating temp, etc to make sure it's fine

Obviously drive it, check for any weird noises, clunks etc...

But I'm really wondering if I'm missing any other "known issues" or anything else I should be checking for?

THANKS!
 

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Unless that thing has a rock solid maintenance history, stay away. It's going to be a gamble. Your list is good. Make sure to get a thorough PPI. I would also do a compression and leak down test. Take it to someone that knows these cars.
 

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Buy it and then change the rod bearings and Vanos line. If it's a good solid car, at least you'll have peace of mind that the engine won't grenade.
 

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With Vanos line do you mean all the solenoids?

No, he means the high pressure oil line that comes off the vanos pump inside the oil pan.

If I knew then when I knew now, I wouldn't buy an M5 with lots of miles. Mine had 123,000, I had all the records from it being serviced it's whole life at BMW of Dallas. The first time I really laid into it, "boom". Okay the sound effect was hyperbole, it didn't grenade but it did spin a rod bearing.

On the flip side. I LOVE the car, and it is so nice to drive. I think that If you are getting a good enough deal on it, have Troy Jeup install a new engine for 10 g's "so basically double the price of doing the bearings" and you start over. Believe me, these cars have gremlins and the 5 grand wont be the last money you spend on it.

Call Troy and verify the pricing but believe me, It's worth the piece of mind.
 
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What you are getting yourself into here, is a ticking time bomb.

-The Trans synchro's six speeds fail at about 70k miles ~ so they are probably really crappy at 115k.

-The engine is all but dead.

You could buy an aftermarket warranty, but to be honest ~ they will fight you on every claim and say it was "pre-existing damage". I deal with shady warranty companies all the time.

Best bet is to get a steal on this for under $20k and immediately bring it in for $5k engine preventative maintenance or spend more money and get one with no more than 50k miles (still need bearings at 50k to be sure).

Here is a quick story from two days ago: Guy in California buys a 2008 m6 6-speed with 54k miles. A month later, he is calling me for an engine because he spun a bearing right after he dogged on it the first time.

If you go on the high mileage side: there is a guy on the board with 123k miles on an 06 m6. He had a misfire and paid $2800 to change the valve spring. But he still needs to change Vanos line and bearings for another $2k plus. When all is said and done, he will have 6 or 7 into a 123k mile motor with worn cylinders and is tired.
 

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There are 100+ M5's for sale in the USA that range from 50k miles to 100k miles, and a good bit of those have north of 80k miles. Hell, I'm looking at a few on cars.com and ebay with 115k - 130k now.


All of us regular posters need to be a little more politically correct. The behavior on this forum today vs before I purchased my M5 is night and day. If I was in the market today and I just so happened to visit this forum, I would NEVER buy an M5 due to the constant posts bashing these cars. Yes bearings are a legitimate concern, but comments like "its a ticking time bomb" will travel, stick and tank the resale value of our cars... We need to remember that there are thousands of these cars in the wild that we do not see.


Lets start treating these cars as a brand that we all own stock in. This forum is the leading M5 fourum and our posts directly affect the reputation of these cars.



That being said, Troy, I highly respect you and your dedication to these cars. I hope to never need to meet you in person, but I will if ever spin a bearing(god forbid).


/rant
 

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If I knew the problems with the E60 M5 before I bought it, I would have bought something else. But since I have already replaced most of the parts that fail I have no excuse to not keep the car now.

I'm just waiting for my SMG to give up next. Then thats everything covered.

But I love the car now, when you test drive it, they are good. Its only when you have spent a bit of time with it alone you really begin to like it.
 

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There are 100+ M5's for sale in the USA that range from 50k miles to 100k miles, and a good bit of those have north of 80k miles. Hell, I'm looking at a few on cars.com and ebay with 115k - 130k now.


All of us regular posters need to be a little more politically correct. The behavior on this forum today vs before I purchased my M5 is night and day. If I was in the market today and I just so happened to visit this forum, I would NEVER buy an M5 due to the constant posts bashing these cars. Yes bearings are a legitimate concern, but comments like "its a ticking time bomb" will travel, stick and tank the resale value of our cars... We need to remember that there are thousands of these cars in the wild that we do not see.


Lets start treating these cars as a brand that we all own stock in. This forum is the leading M5 fourum and our posts directly affect the reputation of these cars.



That being said, Troy, I highly respect you and your dedication to these cars. I hope to never need to meet you in person, but I will if ever spin a bearing(god forbid).


/rant

Troy, you can voice your opinion anytime you deem necessary. I don't want you talking to me politically correct.
This is an issue and I really doubt it affects my cars resale and thats not why I bought it. If I was wanting an investment I will buy gold. Maybe you can not post in this fella's posts.
 

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I'm not in any way interested in starting an internet pissing contest here.

I respect Troy and I definately do NOT want to burn any bridges.


My issue is not with HIM, just comments in general. I just want to avoid the negativity about our cars lately.
 

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It seems like a lot of new owners on here recently have purchased M5s due to the lower market pricing and the big bank for the buck regarding horsepower and overall amount of car but not doing research before hand. I always tell my customers at the dealer to do research and run numbers before they jump into another model like an M car or a model with typical high dollar repairs (N63 motor BMWs for example).

You can ask for all the opinions and advice you want but it's up to you to make the final decision. It's good that you're doing research and not jumping in blind. These cars are phenomenal when you pick the right one. Don't let the board scare you of course everyone on here will come and post about their problems that's what the board is for. When people's cars are running good they normally don't post anything lol.
 

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What you are getting yourself into here, is a ticking time bomb.

-The Trans synchro's six speeds fail at about 70k miles ~ so they are probably really crappy at 115k.

-The engine is all but dead.

Here is a quick story from two days ago: Guy in California buys a 2008 m6 6-speed with 54k miles. A month later, he is calling me for an engine because he spun a bearing right after he dogged on it the first time.
The way this reads, owners should be scared push the accelerator pedal... hmmm

We all know there are wear issues with the Rod Bearings on these engines, but this doesn't mean that after you hit 50k it's time for a full rebuild. There are plenty owners with approaching twice this mileage and no issue as long as the car is well maintained.

I'm on 65k and mine has been "dogged" on at several trackdays and is showing no signs of rod bearing issues yet. Interestingly, it's much rarer that you hear of UK/Euro models with this problem, despite the many thousands of M5's sold.

However, I will be looking at changing the Rod Bearings as the mileage climbs as part of preventative maintenance.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I love this board, all of these replies are great.

I'm not too worried about the "ticking time bomb" comments, I know that it's a high performance motor designed with minimal tolerances which means it is going to wear faster than most would expect.

I didn't even think of the syncros, I guess that'll be something a test drive will be able to feel out. Thanks to everyone for the great posts and insight!!
 
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I think people sometime forget that I maybe have a business based on parts from these m5/m6, but I have been an enthusiast and have owned M cars for the past 15-years. I also have owned an e60 m5 and e63 m6 since they first debuted. I was there with the e46 m3 Rod bearing recall and I have lived through a lemon law e60 m5 (11/05 build).

Being in this business now, I see everything and I see why people don't trust car dealers. I have six or seven independent dealers or non-BMW dealers that we have sold engines to because they not knowingly took a trade on a spun bearing S85-equipped car.
Most of them bite the bullet and put a new engine in to sell, but some of them who don't will call me and ask, "Do you got any of them oversized bearings?".
I even know of members on here who instead of fixing their engine, call me and ask if they can rig their engine so it doesn't go into limp mode and they can trade it in quick. Then I magically get a call from a dealer a month later or someone makes a thread like "UNCIVIL", who bought an M5 from a Cadillac dealer who took it in on trade and sold him an 08 m5 with 72k and a bad motor (obviously Cadillac dealer didn't know about bearings or Vanos).

The truth is, the crankshaft is the weakest link in this engine. The metal journals are very soft in comparison to racing engines or my LS7 crank from the factory. For this reason, I stopped selling used engines back in January and only started selling 0-mile motors with hardened crank journals.
So I can say with 100% transparency that every S85 will fail at some point due to this defect. When and at what mileage? The average is 67k in the 130 motors we have sold. Who knows when the one in your car will die, but I would change the bearings in my own car anything after 50k if I were anyone on this board. The cost of a new motor is a big pill to swallow for anyone, let alone someone pushing it to get into a high mileage example.

I always tell people who ask me about these cars and if they can afford them. Anyone can afford the car payment, but being able to afford the repairs on these cars is for the select few. BMW should have had a recall on these cars, but most have changed hands too many times to expect that. So now all the uninformed buyers are the ones paying the price. Everyone on this board knows of the issues and should already know to change their bearings. Instead, I keep getting phone calls from friends on here who waited until it is too late and I feel so bad when they are staring a $10,000 bill in the face (and that is a darn bargain).
 

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There are 100+ M5's for sale in the USA that range from 50k miles to 100k miles, and a good bit of those have north of 80k miles. Hell, I'm looking at a few on cars.com and ebay with 115k - 130k now.


All of us regular posters need to be a little more politically correct. The behavior on this forum today vs before I purchased my M5 is night and day. If I was in the market today and I just so happened to visit this forum, I would NEVER buy an M5 due to the constant posts bashing these cars. Yes bearings are a legitimate concern, but comments like "its a ticking time bomb" will travel, stick and tank the resale value of our cars... We need to remember that there are thousands of these cars in the wild that we do not see.


Lets start treating these cars as a brand that we all own stock in. This forum is the leading M5 fourum and our posts directly affect the reputation of these cars.



That being said, Troy, I highly respect you and your dedication to these cars. I hope to never need to meet you in person, but I will if ever spin a bearing(god forbid).


/rant

I agree. :flag:

Many folks here simply placed a black flag on the M5 due to this or that. Sure the M5 has quirks, what car does not, but man...these few post are getting a little out of hand. ??????

I own a E60 M5 with high mileage (over 117K) which is driven daily (65 miles round trip) and the oil pan or valve covers have never been off. The car uses 1 to 1.5 quarts of oil between oil changes - every 5.5K miles or so. I use Mobil 15W-50 and I always let her warm up EVEN in the summer. I do all my own maint (fluid changes, plugs, brakes and so on) and even wash her weekly. The car runs strong...it has a tune in it from way back 7 yrs ago, with homemande air scoops, K&N, muffler delete and to this day, she still spins the dyno rollers to a 462rwhp output.

I've seen 40K miles M5's take a crap as with 100K M5's...it all depends on the care and attention to details from the owner(s).

Point is, if the car is cared for correctly regardless of mileage, it will be fine.

OP, if you like the car and it all checks out, then go for it. Remember, many of the post here would scare any would be owner away. I mean, many will tell you to pretty much buy an M5 with around 30K or less and it better have ALL the freaking records in the world and blah blah blah or it is garbage.:confused3

Hope this helps:cheers:
 

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I have been watching this forum (since 2010) long before I actually joined, I surmized a long time ago (the info was already out there) that m5's are ticking time bombs, combined with lack of transparancy from BMW, I have not pulled the trigger in the last four years.

Troy's comment does not lower resale, if anything, his knowledge and experience, and unmatched understanding of the issues, gives me (and others) the transparency and confidence to invest in an M5 (dividents are driving pleasure not dollars).

In fact when I asked my Wife (a F1 fan) about buying a 8-yr old used car with a V-10 F1 based engine, she simply said do it, the sound will be music to her ears (we sit inside the Casino Hairpin at Montreal every year since 1992). Much better sound than the current V-6 turbo's, she misses the V-10 days of F1, but can get it back on her drive to work (it's mine on the weekends)
 

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I agree. :flag:

Many folks here simply placed a black flag on the M5 due to this or that. Sure the M5 has quirks, what car does not, but man...these few post are getting a little out of hand. ??????

I own a E60 M5 with high mileage (over 117K) which is driven daily (65 miles round trip) and the oil pan or valve covers have never been off. The car uses 1 to 1.5 quarts of oil between oil changes - every 5.5K miles or so. I use Mobil 15W-50 and I always let her warm up EVEN in the summer. I do all my own maint (fluid changes, plugs, brakes and so on) and even wash her weekly. The car runs strong...it has a tune in it from way back 7 yrs ago, with homemande air scoops, K&N, muffler delete and to this day, she still spins the dyno rollers to a 462rwhp output.

I've seen 40K miles M5's take a crap as with 100K M5's...it all depends on the care and attention to details from the owner(s).

Point is, if the car is cared for correctly regardless of mileage, it will be fine.

OP, if you like the car and it all checks out, then go for it. Remember, many of the post here would scare any would be owner away. I mean, many will tell you to pretty much buy an M5 with around 30K or less and it better have ALL the freaking records in the world and blah blah blah or it is garbage.:confused3

Hope this helps:cheers:[/

IMHO posts are BS. My care was dealer maintained all it's life and if I always baby the car it would still be running. But whats the point? I read the posts before hand but didn't believe them. But let's face it, to Troy point, this is a very expensive car to own. Especially when all the gremlins come out to play.

So lets stop griping about someone telling the truth and saying he is devaluing our cars, I really doubt we buy them for the investment.
 

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Let me start out by saying E60 is the best car i ever owned. E60 value is already down the toilet. IF anyone doubts it, take your car to the dealer for trade in and see how much you get. Troy has a business that specifically deals with parts for s85 and has probably seen more blown engines than anyone on this board but he is apparently devaluing E60 when he speaks the truth. The idea of head in the sand serves no purpose to new owners looking to get into a car that could literally cost thousands of dollars to fix if something breaks. I think it actually does them a disservice because it gives false sense of security to those that want to own the car.

Got rid of my car under 70k because my warranty ran out and i felt the car was a ticking time bomb like Troy said. The engine already went kaput at 40k. As i said in some thread a while back, it is easy to say everything is all good if you have never had to replace your engine. I guarantee the ones shouting most about how the E60 if cared correctly regardless of mileage, will be fine will be changing their tune if they have engine problems. There is a defect that BMW literally got away with. I owned 2 different E39 and not once would i consider that car a ticking time bomb.

To those looking to purchase used high mileage E60, make sure you have enough funds to cover cost of repairs and get a good warranty if it is available. Most of all get a proper PPI but know that even well cared for cars with oil changed every 5k can still have engine trouble due to design of the engine. I would proactively change out rod bearings and all other parts known to fail in these cars. OF course one can always temp fate and ignore the obvious when it is staring at you in the face. Question is this.. the members here saying all is good, will they be the ones to write you the check when you get engine failure or other very expensive repairs after you buy the car.. think about that :grinyes:
 
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I'm Let me say the root of the problem is dealer maintenance. Dealer maintenance is flawed to begin with. My e60 is my third m5, and my first m5 with CBS intervals. It's my belief, that the CBS intervals are GARBAGE. If you've ever owned an ///m, you SHOULD know what is ahead.

My rule of thumb for ///m ownership has always been to cut the "old school maintenance" schedule in half. Because of the warranty, too many naïve s85 owners never wanted to come out of pocket for additional maintenance. Also, too many "baller" renters leased the daylights out of these s85s -- and drove them into the ground.

Unfortunately, it is my belief, too many "new" owners are picking up someone else's dirty laundry.

My personal experience has been positive. I guess I'm an outrigger.

108,000 miles on the clock. Daily driven AND tracked for the last 80,000+ miles with a 6MT that has NEVER overheated, with trackside temps of 114+ degrees. I have been without warranty for the last 58,000 miles!

Sorry, but my syncros are BUTTER smooth and haven't failed at 70,000 on my 6MT :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: -- and I track my car. Seriously, if your syncros are failing on a 6MT, and your car has "never been tracked", there is a problem with your left foot and your right hand. Operator error :rofl:. Take a look in the mirror.

OP, I'm at 108,000 miles. Several of my friends on the Board are 100,000+. They are meticulous about maintenance, above and beyond the "joke" of dealer maintenance.

I agree with a ticking time bomb, only if you do not know the history. Let me say again: Full dealer maintenance is a JOKE. It's only a starting point for additional due diligence.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The replies keep getting better. I seriously appreciate the info and the insight from all of you.

The car has dealer maintenance for practically it's whole life. I haven't driven it yet so I will find out about the syncros, but if they are shot it looks like the only option is to get a whole transmission from BMW? That seems kind of crazy to me, but a very cursory Google search seemed to confirm that you can't just buy the internals of the trans...

The car had the rod bearings done about 10k miles ago, just as a preventative item according to the seller. I'll just have to drive it and get a good PPI.

Thanks a bunch everyone.
 
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