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Have you ever lied to the person making the BMW service follow-up call?

  • I never ever lied to the BMW poll

    Votes: 21 43.8%
  • I always give better scores out of courtesy

    Votes: 4 8.3%
  • I always give better scores out of rational fear of getting less favourable teratment otherwise

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • I most of the time give better scores out of courtesy

    Votes: 3 6.3%
  • I most of the time give better scores out of rational fear of getting less favourable teratment othe

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • I sometimes give better scores out of courtesy

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • I sometimes give better scores out of rational fear of getting less favourable teratment otherwise

    Votes: 5 10.4%
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Discussion Starter #1
After about half the service visits BMW will call you and ask how everything went, and how pleased you are.

Have you ever lied, and said you were satisfied when you in fact were not?

If so was it out of courtesy, or out of fear of retaliation from the service people if you told it straight to the person making the phone interview?

David
 

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DavidS said:
After about half the service visits BMW will call you and ask how everything went, and how pleased you are.

Have you ever lied, and said you were satisfied when you in fact were not?

If so was it out of courtesy, or out of fear of retaliation from the service people if you told it straight to the person making the phone interview?

David
Not sure the poll covers me. A couple of times I gave a 5 instead of a 4 because although service was good and not great, I didn't think the dealer should be dinged for CSI monies. I think the system is silly when 4 is not good enough, but my dealer really has been very good. So I occassionally have lied as a courtesy.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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gsfent said:
Not sure the poll covers me. A couple of times I gave a 5 instead of a 4 because although service was good and not great, I didn't think the dealer should be dinged for CSI monies. I think the system is silly when 4 is not good enough, but my dealer really has been very good. So I occassionally have lied as a courtesy.
Regards,
Jerry
yeah i agree. people sometimes have differant standards and feel a 4 is good enough and boy does it kill the dealer, and advisor, i would always give a 5 and if i feel i deserve better treatment or service id take it up with the advisor first them manager if that didnt work out.. I recent took a postion at a dealer and let me tell you we try hard to meet the satisfaction of customers, sometimes though its really hard.. prices, and all in all if something breaks the customer is definalty not happy to be there.. but in the end its realy not the advisors fault to receive and 4 or below.. unless he was rude or just plain out not trying his best ,
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Jacob and Jerry,

I do see your points, but if you look at it from the other side: the system as it is today is skewed. If people grade based on benevolence towards the dealership, or out of tactical considerations, rather than on actual perceived performance, it is highly unfair to the really good dealerships.

The rating scale must be allowed to express truly outstanding performance, because such performance is not unheard of, and that level of perfection can not be expressed if "outstanding" is the de facto norm for how the customer feels he should answer no matter what.

There are several posts by people who got pressured and even banned from dealerships after having given low scores. Such behavior should be unthinkable for a professional.

The first question the BMW poll should ask ought to be: have anyone at the dealership discussed with you the ratings you gave last time?

David
 

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i agree Jacob and as i am apart of the dealership i agree completely.


i actually have could not said that any better.

all 5's is the best but if for not jumping through hoops of fire or putting on a circus act this is not possible for most of our customers!!



Jacob NJ said:
yeah i agree. people sometimes have differant standards and feel a 4 is good enough and boy does it kill the dealer, and advisor, i would always give a 5 and if i feel i deserve better treatment or service id take it up with the advisor first them manager if that didnt work out.. I recent took a postion at a dealer and let me tell you we try hard to meet the satisfaction of customers, sometimes though its really hard.. prices, and all in all if something breaks the customer is definalty not happy to be there.. but in the end its realy not the advisors fault to receive and 4 or below.. unless he was rude or just plain out not trying his best ,
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I must ask you: when the Swedish SA lied to me and said there was nothing wrong with any Vanos on any M5, and in particular not on my M5, and a German SA susbsequently arranged for me to get two new Vanos units and a new rear diff courtesy of BMW, how should those two individuals be rated on the BMW poll scale?

On my scale one is a true zero and the other is a true five.

Now, if the scale de facto has been degenerated such that 5 is often awarded to any performance better than unacceptable, how will the really good SA outshine his lesser colleagues in the poll?

Shouldn´t the 5 be reserved for service above and beyond the call of duty?

David
 

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DavidS said:
Jacob and Jerry,

I do see your points, but if you look at it from the other side: the system as it is today is skewed. If people grade based on benevolence towards the dealership, or out of tactical considerations, rather than on actual perceived performance, it is highly unfair to the really good dealerships.

The rating scale must be allowed to express truly outstanding performance, because such performance is not unheard of, and that level of perfection can not be expressed if "outstanding" is the de facto norm for how the customer feels he should answer no matter what.

There are several posts by people who got pressured and even banned from dealerships after having given low scores. Such behavior should be unthinkable for a professional.

The first question the BMW poll should ask ought to be: have anyone at the dealership discussed with you the ratings you gave last time?

David
David
I see your point, but the problem is the rating system. I don't know what would happen if I gave a 4, but I understand the CSI and back end money is tied to 5's. So if I give a 5 instead of a 4, I don't feel bad, because both are acceptable.

For instance, one service, car came back with a lousy brake pedal feel after a flush and vacuum bleed. Dealer got me back in 2-3 days later, and they did a hand bleed. Obviously, no charge and all was well. Should I have dinged him with a 4 because service wasn't perfect? I didn't becuase it was properly and quickly handled.

Or the free replacement clutch (no argument, no dance) that took 3 days instead of one, but all the while I had the free loaner? Again, not perfect, but very good, with minor inconvenience. Under those circumstances, I chose not to cost them the back end money that they should get on a 4 or 5, but will only get on a 5.

Now, if I have a problem I understand a 4, which would be very good, will still cost them. It would be hard to be upset with a customer for giving a "very good". So long as I well treated, and when minor glitches come up and are quickly and properly resolved, I think the dealer and SA are entitled to the skewed 5.

Regards,
Jerry
 

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did you ever think that the SA was not well educated and the Tech was giving him wrong advise and trusted that he knew what he was talking about...


that is when calling a service manager after consultinng on the board and david contactinng me via e-mail is an option to get all pertenant info to that manager to help you with the issue if they are not educated enough.?


but answer a question. was your SA nice, did he answer you in a timely manner (even if it was a answer that you did not like?)

anyway what was your question to him about the vanos?? what year do you have again?
DavidS said:
I must ask you: when the Swedish SA lied to me and said there was nothing wrong with any Vanos on any M5, and in particular not on my M5, and a German SA susbsequently arranged for me to get two new Vanos units and a new rear diff courtesy of BMW, how should those two individuals be rated on the BMW poll scale?

On my scale one is a true zero and the other is a true five.

Now, if the scale de facto has been degenerated such that 5 is often awarded to any performance better than unacceptable, how will the really good SA outshine his lesser colleagues in the poll?

Shouldn´t the 5 be reserved for service above and beyond the call of duty?

David
 

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Discussion Starter #9
gsfent said:
David
I see your point, but the problem is the rating system. Under those circumstances, I chose not to cost them the back end money that they should get on a 4 or 5, but will only get on a 5.

Now, if I have a problem I understand a 4, which would be very good, will still cost them. It would be hard to be upset with a customer for giving a "very good". So long as I well treated, and when minor glitches come up and are quickly and properly resolved, I think the dealer and SA are entitled to the skewed 5.

Regards,
Jerry
Jerry,

I do not agree the rating system as such is the problem. There are two big problems with the use of the rating results, but IMHO the rating scale when interpreted honestly is fine.

The first problem is that BMW only count the 5s. It is as if in Formula 1, only the winner of each race got any points. That would make the championship much less interesting.

The second and even bigger problem is the knowledge of how the rating system is converted to advantages has been communicated to the customers and allowed to influence their feed-back.

It is as if at a jury trial someone was allowed to say to the jurors one at a time: Going to jail is not good for any human being. It is really devastating. It is horrible. Besides it is bad for our business. We don´t like things that is bad for our business. We would really appreciate if you would be so kind as to vote "not guilty" in this matter. Besides we will know how you voted, and we will inform everybody in The Family how you have voted so they can have a chat with you afterwards. ;-)

Best Regs,

David
 

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Discussion Starter #10
arburk2 said:
did you ever think that the SA was not well educated and the Tech was giving him wrong advise and trusted that he knew what he was talking about...


that is when calling a service manager after consultinng on the board and david contactinng me via e-mail is an option to get all pertenant info to that manager to help you with the issue if they are not educated enough.?


but answer a question. was your SA nice, did he answer you in a timely manner (even if it was a answer that you did not like?)

anyway what was your question to him about the vanos?? what year do you have again?
The Vanos debacle was years ago. It is a sad story, but it all ended well. I just used it as an example of how bad and how good SAs can be.

The Swedish SA was actually the service manager himself. At this time (2002) the info about the Vanos SIB was already in the TIS. I already had the info from this board. I asked the service manager to check in the TIS and check with BMW Sweden. He did and then flat out lied to me, first saying there was no Service Bulletin, then when confronted with the US text saying it did not affect european cars.

I then asked BMW Sweden to confirm that the text in the Swedish TIS matched the text in the US and German TIS. BMW Sweden flat out lied to me. At this time BMW Sweden was running a nation wide cover-up of the Vanos stuff, an effort that had recently been given up in the US and Germany.

Later the SA lied to me about what engine number I had in the car, saying it was outside the range affected by the SIB.
When I asked where the engine number could be found, I was told they did not know.

Well, I found the engine number anyway, and indeed the car was right in the range of the cars affected by the Service Bulletin about the Vanos updates.

When I confronted them with the fact the had been lying all along they did not say nice things. If someone pulls a fast one on me and I detect it, and I protest in a polite and constructive way, I do not like to get told off rudly.

I was called a spy for knowing things that were public knowlege in the US, information given freely to any customer concerned with Vanos noise in the US and in Germany, and found in the Swedish TIS as well.

To answer your question, no, they were highly impolite.

All in all, as I see it, pre-meditated, skilled and iterated fraud with the intent to rob me of $5k worth of Vanos stuff.

A few months later, in Germany I asked an SA what he thought of the Vanos units in my car. He took care of it in a truly excellent way. Afterwards when I wanted to thank him, and show my gratitude, he just said "It is my job to do the best for the BMW customers. I am glad I could help. You are very welcom back to us whenever you visit Germany." And I do return whenever I am in that part of Germany.

A few days later, when I was back in Sweden, he called me just to check everything was fine with the car and that there were no leaks or noises after the long drive.

David
 

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I have a rather hair-pulling story about clutch/warranty issues. Approx. 6 weeks after purchasing my 2000 M5, I noticed the dreaded clutch slippage. I made an appointment at my local dealer. The SA, new guy, told me that my clutch was worn and needed to be replaced. He then proceded to tell me that because I had purchased the car only six short weeks earlier, that they would replace my clutch under a "goodwill" warranty! Even though the CPO extended warranty normally does not cover a "wear and tear" item such as a clutch. He then proceded to schedule me a "free" loaner car and made my appointment to replace my clutch. WOW (I thought) this is the nicest SA in North America!!!

Oh, now the story gets juicy! A short three hours later I get a call from the Service Manager, he states that the SA was a new employee and had no idea what he was talking about?????? The clutch was not covered under warranty and my appointment along with my loaner car was cancelled. grrrrrrr grrrrrrr grrrrrrr He old me that the SA was given a warning and transferred to a different dealership.

I guess the point of my story is that I still gave the SA all "5". Even though I was furious, it was not the SA's fault. He tried to accomodate me, and was extremely nice about it.

Bottom line is that dealership has lost a valuable customer. Over the past 10 years, my family has purchased 8 vehicles from that dealership totalling over $300k!
 

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I don't lie. I tell them the truth.

Last time they called, I told them the advisor's name, and told them he did a great job that time and all the time. Real good guy, he deserves it.
 

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DavidS said:
Jerry,

I do not agree the rating system as such is the problem. There are two big problems with the use of the rating results, but IMHO the rating scale when interpreted honestly is fine.

The first problem is that BMW only count the 5s. It is as if in Formula 1, only the winner of each race got any points. That would make the championship much less interesting.
Your first sentence says the rating system is not the problem, but then you acknowledge that the problem is BMW only counts 5's. To me, that is exactly the problem and it is the rating system as interpreted by BMW. While the "system" isn't at fault, the way it is applied to keep score and distribute money is. So I am not sure if we really disagree, maybe just semantics
The second and even bigger problem is the knowledge of how the rating system is converted to advantages has been communicated to the customers and allowed to influence their feed-back.

It is as if at a jury trial someone was allowed to say to the jurors one at a time: Going to jail is not good for any human being. It is really devastating. It is horrible. Besides it is bad for our business. We don´t like things that is bad for our business. We would really appreciate if you would be so kind as to vote "not guilty" in this matter.
Happens all the time in American jurisprudence. It is called a jury pardon. It may not be right, or a proper application of the law to the facts, but it is allowed and exploited by good defense lawyers in the proper circumstances.
Besides we will know how you voted, and we will inform everybody in The Family how you have voted so they can have a chat with you afterwards. ;-)
Once acquitted, the game is over. No recounts (not even in Florida! :1: )


Regards,
Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Jerry,

I totally agree with you, and did all the time. I just wanted to make the distinction between the polling as such and how the results are misused to retaliate against dissatisfied customers, and how the results are not used in a fair way to acknowledge good SAs who get consistent high-but-not-super-high scores. The run of the mill people who in an unbiased sistem would get lots of 4s and a few 5s. Today there is no direct benefit in recinving a 4 over a 2.

About the jury situation, I was referring to scary one-on-one visits or messages by mob people to jurors or juror families.

Finally, I like your sense of humor!

Democracy sometimes makes mistakes. Hitler was elected in 1933 in a fair and unmanipulated election. A vast majority of the Germans were fed up with weak governemnents that could not do anything about the deep economic problems the country were in. They wanted a real change. They wanted strong leadership. They wanted national self-esteem restored. They did get all of that plus horror and disaster for the next twelve years. But Hitler was elected in a free democratic election.

And if it haden´t been for Churchill being crazy enough to contrary to all reason believe a war against Germany could be won, and Roosevelt (pre Pearl Harbour) manipulating Congress to let him help Churchill, the Nazis would have ruled Europe forever.

America and Britain saved Europe from the nazis, and for this we shall forever be grateful.

David
 

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German BMW dealeships are top notch kinggf Swedish ones are mostly bad (the larger ones)


DavidS said:
I was called a spy for knowing things that were public knowlege in the US, information given freely to any customer concerned with Vanos noise in the US and in Germany, and found in the Swedish TIS as well.

To answer your question, no, they were highly impolite.

All in all, as I see it, pre-meditated, skilled and iterated fraud with the intent to rob me of $5k worth of Vanos stuff.

A few months later, in Germany I asked an SA what he thought of the Vanos units in my car. He took care of it in a truly excellent way. Afterwards when I wanted to thank him, and show my gratitude, he just said "It is my job to do the best for the BMW customers. I am glad I could help. You are very welcom back to us whenever you visit Germany." And I do return whenever I am in that part of Germany.

A few days later, when I was back in Sweden, he called me just to check everything was fine with the car and that there were no leaks or noises after the long drive.

David
 

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I've only taken two surveys.

One time I gave a better score to the SA out of courtesy- but neither time was it 'all fives'....
 

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DavidS said:
Jerry,

I totally agree with you, and did all the time. I just wanted to make the distinction between the polling as such and how the results are misused to retaliate against dissatisfied customers, and how the results are not used in a fair way to acknowledge good SAs who get consistent high-but-not-super-high scores. The run of the mill people who in an unbiased sistem would get lots of 4s and a few 5s. Today there is no direct benefit in recinving a 4 over a 2.

About the jury situation, I was referring to scary one-on-one visits or messages by mob people to jurors or juror families.

Finally, I like your sense of humor!

Democracy sometimes makes mistakes. Hitler was elected in 1933 in a fair and unmanipulated election. A vast majority of the Germans were fed up with weak governemnents that could not do anything about the deep economic problems the country were in. They wanted a real change. They wanted strong leadership. They wanted national self-esteem restored. They did get all of that plus horror and disaster for the next twelve years. But Hitler was elected in a free democratic election.

And if it haden´t been for Churchill being crazy enough to contrary to all reason believe a war against Germany could be won, and Roosevelt (pre Pearl Harbour) manipulating Congress to let him help Churchill, the Nazis would have ruled Europe forever.

America and Britain saved Europe from the nazis, and for this we shall forever be grateful.

David
Thanks!! The mob never uses a jury, they have their own (and one must admit swift!!LOL) system of justice. And, no appeals!!

Yes, in a free democratic society, sometimes you get what you ask for. Be very very careful what you ask for!! ;)

And yes, it is unfair to the good SA's who earn their 5's, but I am not sure that giving a real grade is helpful. I guess BMWNA can stand by their survey "results", but in real life, it is the results of the real service that count. As noted, the German dealerships have a much different attitude than the Swedish dealerships. For whatever flasw the cars may have, Lexus (Toyota) in the U.S has a great rep for customer satisfactions. Maybe that is why they sell so many cars that are inferiror (although they are catching up) to our beloved German Ubersedans.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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I see it like this, alot of the dealers that i have gone to have gone so far to ask me if i would give them 5's on the follow up call or even put their own survey in the car for you to fill out and postage-paid mail back just to ensure that they are doing things right. I make no beef about it, ill let you know whats going on. I have even gone to bat for friends at the same dealer because the dealer knew i would rape them if they attempted certain things with others that i knew. Dont let them get away with anything...they already charger way too much for parts and service, dont let them get away with not getting the grade they deserve. I never got away with grades in elementary school, and im not going to let these rookies get away with anything. For as we all know, very few service visits do you get to deal with someone that actually knows something about an m5. Let'em have it
 

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DavidS said:
Finally, I like your sense of humor!
I do too (he was talking about gsfent)! But you, David S, are very funny too!! :1: HA HA HA


Now seriously, and I realize this may only apply for BMW North Am, so I apologize in advance, how exactly is the dealership reimbursed for a warranty repair/parts. Surely whether or not we give them 5's isn't the only way they get any money, or is it? What do they get for a 4? 3? etc?

I get surveyed after every visit, no matter whether it's warranty work or not!

Thanks for any clarification!

Anita
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Anita,

From what I have understood, the delaership gets paid for parts and labour when performing warranty work. For goodwill repairs the dealership gets paid for the parts only, and can either absorb the labour cost themselves or bill the customer.

The poll results affect bonus payments from BMW NA to the top quality dealerships, not payment for work or parts.

Cheers!

David
 
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