BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,731 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
since found out that Hartge used special cams and a different exhaust plus I imagine alterations to the ECU to produce its claimed 330bhp
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
471 Posts
At least one of the 187 GB-spec cars has been modified.

Suggest you talk to Birds, the UK agent for Hartge, if you haven't already done this.

The minimal info I have seen in relation to this modified car suggests that all the work was to the cylinder head.

Regards

Mfiver
 

·
Registered
2009 M6 Coupe 24000 miles Saphire Black
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
Andy G said:
Any body know about the works done to these cars to make the claimed 330bhp?

Hartge's M5

I would take those numbers with a grain of salt.....

If memory serves me right the performance numbers when tested was not as impressive as they should have been with 330 Hp.

I will take a look to see if I find some info.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Erik said:
I would take those numbers with a grain of salt.....

If memory serves me right the performance numbers when tested was not as impressive as they should have been with 330 Hp.

I will take a look to see if I find some info.
Hi, new to the board, but have been watching for some time. The 330hp version was based on the e28 and E24 286hp engine, and we supplied 4 of these cars, engines built in UK, but all technology and componentry supplied by Hartge. Conversion was fully reworked head, inlet pipework, camshafts, slotted pulleys, camshafts, and engine management. The compression was 10.7:1 which was on the limit. We don't doubt the claimed HP, as the engines were mental at the top end. Last time we saw one was 3 years ago, had covered 135,909 miles, and had a substantial rebuild due to failed headgasket. We are also rebuilding the body on an H35-24 based on E30 M3, which I used to own. The best car I've owned so far.

Anyone wanting reprints of old editorial on these cars, respond with emial address and which car you are interested in. We should be able to find it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
I am interested in the Hartge M5 info
Oh and
Big Welcome aboard

I just had a Metric Mechanic 3.7 rally motor put in mine
HP 340 -355 or so (depends which ad I see)

Dyno to follow this spring

Wondering what modifications Hartge did to intake and exhaust
TIA
John :cheers:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
john lucas said:
I am interested in the Hartge M5 info
Oh and
Big Welcome aboard

I just had a Metric Mechanic 3.7 rally motor put in mine
HP 340 -355 or so (depends which ad I see)

Dyno to follow this spring

Wondering what modifications Hartge did to intake and exhaust
TIA
John :cheers:
Combustion chambers modified to give 10.7:1, Valves and valve seats modified to three angle configuration/narrow seat area, inlet and exhaust ports enlarged and matched to machined throttle bodies and exhaust manifolds. Camshafts were high lift and longer duration and as a consequence the cam carrier had to be machined for clearance. The camshaft pulleys are slotted to allow adjustement as the engine became a little peaky, and accurate timing set-up was a must. Effectively, all of the components above the head gasket line are modified. Additionally, Hartge supplied a revised ECU to take care of the fuelling and ignition requirements.

Regards, Kevin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,832 Posts
welcome abaord Kevin,

its great to see the owner(s) of one of the best tuning companies on here answering the questions.

I got one question, could the S38B36 engine benefit from those modifications and if so which ones? Have you eve modified the S38 from the E34?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Cyrus said:
welcome abaord Kevin,

its great to see the owner(s) of one of the best tuning companies on here answering the questions.

I got one question, could the S38B36 engine benefit from those modifications and if so which ones? Have you eve modified the S38 from the E34?
Hartge used similar modifications in the H36, the S38 B36 engined M3. I owned one for quite a while, and Hartge told me that the particular car I had developed nearly 360hp when they had finished with it! Certainly felt like it...
With all of these types of engine, there was no "kit of parts" and no generally available solution. Each one was done individually, and the results were entirely subject to workmanship at the Beckingen factory. I'm sure that they could and would do the same again, and I'm sure we could replicate their work here in Uxbridge. It involves camshafts, installation of the same, and a considerable amount of work on the existing head, valves and inlet systems. Engine management would have to be remapped as a consequence. My best guess at a price would be 5k, which is a lot of dough, but there is a considerable amount of machine work and fettling to be done to better BMW M's handiwork, as you would expect!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,832 Posts
Birds Hartge said:
Hartge used similar modifications in the H36, the S38 B36 engined M3. I owned one for quite a while, and Hartge told me that the particular car I had developed nearly 360hp when they had finished with it! Certainly felt like it...
With all of these types of engine, there was no "kit of parts" and no generally available solution. Each one was done individually, and the results were entirely subject to workmanship at the Beckingen factory. I'm sure that they could and would do the same again, and I'm sure we could replicate their work here in Uxbridge. It involves camshafts, installation of the same, and a considerable amount of work on the existing head, valves and inlet systems. Engine management would have to be remapped as a consequence. My best guess at a price would be 5k, which is a lot of dough, but there is a considerable amount of machine work and fettling to be done to better BMW M's handiwork, as you would expect!
When you do work to a car do you dyno it after wards to show the gains?

I know alot of E30 owners are interested in the H26 conversion but want to see that proof it makes 190 bhp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,638 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Cyrus said:
When you do work to a car do you dyno it after wards to show the gains?

I know alot of E30 owners are interested in the H26 conversion but want to see that proof it makes 190 bhp.
You should really be happy that Hartge made that claim under strict German legislation. Given that there are no exhaust manifolds available any more, we do a bit more work to the cylinder head to compensate. I would have no problem guaranteeing the additional 20hp. However, the car would need to be tested both before and after the conversion, as it is unlikely that cars of this vintage actually produce the original BMW spec. 170hp. I guess we must have done around 50 such conversions, without complaint (so far so good!)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,934 Posts
Birds Hartge said:
You should really be happy that Hartge made that claim under strict German legislation. Given that there are no exhaust manifolds available any more, we do a bit more work to the cylinder head to compensate. I would have no problem guaranteeing the additional 20hp. However, the car would need to be tested both before and after the conversion, as it is unlikely that cars of this vintage actually produce the original BMW spec. 170hp. I guess we must have done around 50 such conversions, without complaint (so far so good!)
-----------------

Hi Kevin

Along with the other members I also welcome you aboard, and it is great to have a knowledgeable person such as yourself writing here. I have a question...one that has been asked many times..
What could you safely/reliably extract from the 3,8 block on the E34 M5, as a daily driver?
I have the Schrick cams and a UNICHIP and 100 cell catalysts. I suppose extensive headwork?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Jahangeer said:
-----------------

Hi Kevin

Along with the other members I also welcome you aboard, and it is great to have a knowledgeable person such as yourself writing here. I have a question...one that has been asked many times..
What could you safely/reliably extract from the 3,8 block on the E34 M5, as a daily driver?
I have the Schrick cams and a UNICHIP and 100 cell catalysts. I suppose extensive headwork?
Regret to admit I have no answer for that one. The 3.8l was very late in BMWs development path, and only presented limited appeal for tuners, therefore nothing serious made it into the marketplace.
As with most M engines, someone has already done the fettling work to quite a high standard, so gains are relatively poor for quite a lot of effort (=cash). Best way forward would be to convert the engine management to alpha-n, using MoTec. Expensive, but you are guaranteed to get better performance in absolutely any engine configuration you may arrive at in the future. If they or their dealers have done a configuration like this before, then you will be able to tap into existing knowledge. Would be nasty if you had to fund your own development costs though.
Otherwise, a really careful set-up and remap of the existing engine management would be the only other route to get the best out of what you have. I would guess that you would only see maybe another 20hp from really slick headwork.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,934 Posts
Birds Hartge said:
Regret to admit I have no answer for that one. The 3.8l was very late in BMWs development path, and only presented limited appeal for tuners, therefore nothing serious made it into the marketplace.
As with most M engines, someone has already done the fettling work to quite a high standard, so gains are relatively poor for quite a lot of effort (=cash). Best way forward would be to convert the engine management to alpha-n, using MoTec. Expensive, but you are guaranteed to get better performance in absolutely any engine configuration you may arrive at in the future. If they or their dealers have done a configuration like this before, then you will be able to tap into existing knowledge. Would be nasty if you had to fund your own development costs though.
Otherwise, a really careful set-up and remap of the existing engine management would be the only other route to get the best out of what you have. I would guess that you would only see maybe another 20hp from really slick headwork.
---------------

Thanks Kevin - it is as I thought - the law of diminishing returns heavily applies. Have considered MOTEC alpha-n systems - but I want a reliable daily driver.

Sorry guys - getting of-topic.....will end now.

Thanks again Kevin.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top