[94jedi]

Hey guys, I'm sure this question has been asked before but I find that with time, people's opinions change. Wanted to get your thoughts on moving from the F10 M5 to the E60 M5...or maybe even having both. My F10 (2015 MB DCT Comp Pack) is my DD and has been nothing short of perfect. I love it, but it just doesn't have the same soul of the N/A S86/65 engines. Prior to the F10 M5, I had a nearly perfect e90 M3, Manual, slicktop w/ Akra exhaust and it was glorious. I sold it because I wanted more power and a more "executive" or luxury platform. I also wanted a DCT due to the traffic I sit in daily. I skipped over the e60 M5 because the F10 can make so much power so easily. Also, the E60 seemed to have more reliability issues, although the more I read, the more it's a wash between the two. I'm wondering if that lust for power lead me astray.

So for those of you that have both, or have owned both, or made the move from one to the other, I'd like to hear your opinions. Although I love the F10, it feels just a bit too sedate...maybe I need a track toy rather than another M5. It feels like the jump from M3 to M5, especially of those gens may have been a bit too much of a swing for me.

Thoughts?

 

[Craze]

Is it a daily? It would be hard to go from an f10 to an e60 as its aged a lot more

 

[94jedi]

yep, F10 is my daily. Probably doesn't make sense to have another M5 as a "fun" car.

 

[T304]

Take a test drive in an E60 and see if the trade down is worth it. I recently had a week of seat time in an F10 2016 M5 with lower miles. When I jumped back in the E60 I could feel:

• Every bushing that is worn on the car
• The body flexing more over bumps
• The door panels seemed thinner and you seem to sit more "on" the car than "in" the car
• Stuff from the decade before this one (as we move into the next) all around you
• Accelerating at part hustle is more of a chore as the engine doesn't spin the earth underneath it without all that torque - especially with the SMG

Mine is a 2010 with around 68,000 miles. I still wouldn't trade it for 5 F10 M5's. When the tach spirals out of control past 6k with the sound of screaming banshees ricocheting off of everything - ownership is worth whatever the hassle or dealbreaker you think there is.

I just treat this SMG business as though it's a manual and operate it as I would operate a manual (gaps and all) - computer does the shifting. If you know that's what it's going to be and can appreciate that then it's no longer a deficit vs. the DCT.

 

[94jedi]

Take a test drive in an E60 and see if the trade down is worth it. I recently had a week of seat time in an F10 2016 M5 with lower miles. When I jumped back in the E60 I could feel:

• Every bushing that is worn on the car
• The body flexing more over bumps
• The door panels seemed thinner and you seem to sit more "on" the car than "in" the car
• Stuff from the decade before this one (as we move into the next) all around you
• Accelerating at part hustle is more of a chore as the engine doesn't spin the earth underneath it without all that torque - especially with the SMG

Mine is a 2010 with around 68,000 miles. I still wouldn't trade it for 5 F10 M5's. When the tach spirals out of control past 6k with the sound of screaming banshees ricocheting off of everything - ownership is worth whatever the hassle or dealbreaker you think there is.

I just treat this SMG business as though it's a manual and operate it as I would operate a manual (gaps and all) - computer does the shifting. If you know that's what it's going to be and can appreciate that then it's no longer a deficit vs. the DCT.

Great idea; I think there's a few local cars for sale in my area. I think I'll go have a spin. Can you elaborate more on your point about the SMG? Not sure what you mean there. In the f10; unless I'm driving spiritedly, I'm in eco-mode, least aggressive shifts, etc. When it's time to have fun though, I do shift the dct manually, although I leave it in first at a light or when coming to a stop (I don't shift to N)

 

[CucoM5]

Sounds like you miss the soul of a naturally aspirated beast. Turbo cars are faster and very reliable these days but definitely don’t feel the same as a S85, S65 or even a chevy LS.

I’d look at the E46 M3, E90 M3 or E60 M5 and maybe use them on the weekends or on track days, or to take a break from the f10 once in while.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[T304]

Great idea; I think there's a few local cars for sale in my area. I think I'll go have a spin. Can you elaborate more on your point about the SMG? Not sure what you mean there. In the f10; unless I'm driving spiritedly, I'm in eco-mode, least aggressive shifts, etc. When it's time to have fun though, I do shift the dct manually, although I leave it in first at a light or when coming to a stop (I don't shift to N)

SMG operates as a single dry clutch, as you'd find in a typical manual transmission car. A hydraulic system takes care of feathering the clutch at takeoff, releasing it, and depressing it to change gears. There are two modes, auto and manual... If left to it's programmers' ideals in auto it operates as:

• "D" at stoplights is neutral. Car will roll backwards if on a hill as a manual with the clutch depressed or the box in N
• Hit accelerator, clutch feathers out and the car is underway
• "D" will at some point call for second gear depending on how hard you've decided to accelerate. If doing so gently it will stop forward motion while the clutch is opened, the trans picks the next gear, and the clutch loads up for the next gear
• You can minimize this delay by upping the "shift speed" selector at the bottom of the shifter unit. Don't get your hopes up
• You can expect up to a full two second delay between gear shifts in auto mode. From the DCT or traditional automoatic transmission world this will come as a shocker. My brother was an auto trans guy, took a ride with the SMG and gave the key back and never asked about the car again.

But if you've owned a manual transmission car and used a clutch yourself it would seem more natural. With that experience you can use the SMG system to mimic the way a manual operator would use the transmission. You can almost eliminate delay by using the system in manual mode and controlling when you want the next gear using the paddles and anticipating the gaps in forward motion by reducing throttle prior to shifting.

At full throttle and max shift speed in either auto or manual it dumps the clutch into the next gear with a violent thump that your passengers will cringe at as the clutch tries to reduce a 500hp engine by 2000RPM to the next gear... your family will assume that you're gonna be bankrupt soon after your next clutch job and start making excuses in their head why you can't stay with them when your house gets repo'ed

 

[Fiftytwoeighty]

@94jedi where are you located? I'll let you drive my e60 as a baseline of a clean example. I think the e60m5 is a good car to have in any toy chest. The s63tu is wicked fast, for sure. Lots of my friends made the move to the f10, and now the G90. I just think the m5s keep getting too too too big for my needs.

I used my e28 m5, e39 m5, and 6MT e60 m5 to commute between Huntington Beach and The Bay Area for years. Why not own both, then decide? I had three generations at the same time. I kept the e28 and e60, sold the e39 and never pulled the trigger on the f10. My e28 m5 evolved into a "gentleman racer" DE track toy -- engine rebuilt to s38b39 ProCar specs, Group A suspension, yada, yada, yada...oh, it's ruined as an "executive" cruiser, but that's where my e60 6MT comes in to play. For my e60, I'm going on eight/nine years and on my third duty cycle on preventive AND elective maintenance. At 167,000 miles, she drives better than off-the-factory-floor for track days, airstrips, baby-hauling, and grocery getting. My e60 is set up for fun on the streets and canyons that is also happy at the track. The e28 is set up for fun at the tracks, but can be driven in canyons and (uncomfortably) on the street. I also have an e30 race car, set up for wheel-2-wheel racing and not much fun outside of a track.

For me, the e60 is the Goldilocks in sizing. The challenge with finding a clean e60 to test drive is FINDING A CLEAN E60 to test drive. The best e60s rarely trade hands, leaving mostly clapped out examples in the used market.

As for reliability, the s85s are only as reliable as the owner's, or previous owners', mechanical and financial commitment towards elective maintenance to the platform.

Good luck in your search!

 

[Beniki]

I don't daily my M5, but every time I drive it to work in traffic I think it is a nice place to be - especially now that I have had time to learn the SMG.
That being said, if I had the choice. for a pure daily and not a weekend toy (as mine is), I would find it hard to go past the F10.

 

[pmalik]

You can almost eliminate delay by using the system in manual mode and controlling when you want the next gear using the paddles and anticipating the gaps in forward motion by reducing throttle prior to shifting.

Almost. I still haven't figured out how to smooth the transition between engine braking and clutch-in coasting (58K mile car, new smg fluid, new clutch solenoid seals etc), there's always a bit of jerk in that transition. I'm tempted to wire up an arduino to make both paddles in put the car in neutral and then shift out, ferrari style.

 

[94jedi]

@94jedi where are you located? I'll let you drive my e60 as a baseline of a clean example.

Located in Raleigh NC, not sure if you're close or not. Great call on the test drive though, need to find a suitable local car to test out.

 

[Dacan23]

My friend doesnt understand when I tell him I enjoy driving the M5 more than my M4, and he is a gear head as well. While the M4 vs F10 M5 is not apples to apples. I remember beating on the F10 at M School for 2 days and it did not make me miss the E60 at all. Now if we were talking about the F90 then..... Every M5 generation is different and appeals to a variety of people.

Saw Ford vs Ferrari last week, so many times they are talking about 7000 rpms and it made me chuckle inside.... I made it a point to push my M5 to 8200 rpms on the way home

 

[Fiftytwoeighty]

Located in Raleigh NC, not sure if you're close or not. Great call on the test drive though, need to find a suitable local car to test out.

Bummer, I’m in Southern California.

 

[94jedi]

Bummer, I’m in Southern California.

Appreciate the offer!

 

[Beniki]

Saw Ford vs Ferrari last week, so many times they are talking about 7000 rpms and it made me chuckle inside.... I made it a point to push my M5 to 8200 rpms on the way home

OMG... I did exactly the same thing

 

[KRAM5]

Hey guys, I'm sure this question has been asked before but I find that with time, people's opinions change. Wanted to get your thoughts on moving from the F10 M5 to the E60 M5...or maybe even having both. My F10 (2015 MB DCT Comp Pack) is my DD and has been nothing short of perfect. I love it, but it just doesn't have the same soul of the N/A S86/65 engines. Prior to the F10 M5, I had a nearly perfect e90 M3, Manual, slicktop w/ Akra exhaust and it was glorious. I sold it because I wanted more power and a more "executive" or luxury platform. I also wanted a DCT due to the traffic I sit in daily. I skipped over the e60 M5 because the F10 can make so much power so easily. Also, the E60 seemed to have more reliability issues, although the more I read, the more it's a wash between the two. I'm wondering if that lust for power lead me astray.

So for those of you that have both, or have owned both, or made the move from one to the other, I'd like to hear your opinions. Although I love the F10, it feels just a bit too sedate...maybe I need a track toy rather than another M5. It feels like the jump from M3 to M5, especially of those gens may have been a bit too much of a swing for me.

Thoughts?

I have neither of these cars but do have a similar scenario. Keeping the F10 for DD and getting a track car (kept your e90?- ouch) would probably scratch the itch for high RPM NA sound/rush and is more suited to the track than street unless you're in attack mode with it. My experience driving both 6sp 2dr s65 & 4dr auto s65 was they are fun and sound awesome if you're whipping on them pretty good. Otherwise, acceleration was nothing great but they still felt like a great handling ride with a sporting feel.

My 996 turbo was a really great DD until I made it more track focused over the first 2 years owning it. 5 years in, I enjoy it less on the street after the novelty has worn off and I've pushed it more track only. Still love to drive it on the street occasionally but not nearly as often since picking up a 991s. With 2-way RS pros you can tune to reasonably cush but the car is detrimental to respect for speed limits at appropriate times.

The opposite of what you're considering I've found to be fun, using the great sounding NA car that's not too fast for DD and the turbo torque monster at the track. Maybe get an e60 M5 for DD, and a 2014/15 F80 for $35k then do a tune, exhaust, monoball bushings, shocks/springs and align for the track? Could still drive it on the street but on track you have a monster, and who wants a slow car on an open track (pussies who claim more fun to drive slow car fast).

I loved my co-workers V-10 with an exhaust and still regret not buying it for the $19k dealer gave him on trade 3 years ago (70k miles, fresh clutch, oil cooler, recall cats done at 67k, all maintenance up to date). Bough an e39 M5 instead and now it shares DD with the 991s. First world chit here, have fun on your quest for the right combo!

 

[Fiftytwoeighty]

Hard to beat a grocery getter that sounds like this:

 

[94jedi]

Hard to beat a grocery getter that sounds like this:

Jeeez that sounds incredible!

 

[Maseroche]

Saw Ford vs Ferrari last week, so many times they are talking about 7000 rpms and it made me chuckle inside.... I made it a point to push my M5 to 8200 rpms on the way home

Did the same as well!?

 

[94jedi]

Update: I went for a test drive today - I drove this E60 M5 https://www.hannaimports.com/used/BMW/2008-BMW-M5-raleigh-nc-2c690a620a0d04fe0f193c0f1c2b8aaa.htm

Couple of important caveats - Much of my feelings below are due to owning and daily driving a tuned F10 M5. So keep that in mind, especially as I talk about the engine. Second, I still love the e60 M5, so please don't think I'm bashing it in any way, just giving my opinion. Lastly, it's important to understand the progression of cars that lead me to this point, so you know what I'm comparing to. I won't bore you w/ all the non-BMW's but essentially I went from 2003 330i ZHP (6speed), then E90 M3 Slick-top (6speed) and an e46 M3 (6speed) at the same time, finally to an F10 M5 (DCT).

Initial thoughts - I left feeling very "underwhelmed" and quite frankly, disappointed.

First of all - the pics make the car out to be quite a bit cleaner that it really is. The car has been on the lot for 176 days and it shows. It's been scuffed; scratched and the interior is not in great shape. Sitting out in the elements has clearly taken it's toll. A-pillar cloth is beginning to sag, shifter trim cover is bubbling/peeling. The top rear bumper/trunk area is all scratched up; Seats are worn, carpets are dirty and it has a bit of an odd smell...not sure what, dog maybe? I guess I wasn't expecting the e60 platform to age so poorly; not sure if it's just this one or all of them are starting to get long in the tooth. All of that being said, based on what you guys wrote above; this was kind of my expectation, but I guess seeing it in the flesh put a new lens on it. I guess I'm more disappointed with this particular example, which clearly didn't age well.

On to the engine. Not sure if this car was running right but even in "power" mode; i.e. all 507 ponies; it just didn't sell me. It didn't "stir my soul". The induction sound was great of course but...I don't know, I expected more. Granted, this was a bone stock car. Maybe I'm spoiled by a tuned F10 M5 and the stupid torque and non-linear delivery. It feels like for this e60 M5 to be "fun" for me, it needs a tune, intake, and a muffler delete at a minimum. Of course I would do those things anyway, but again, this car left me a bit uninspired. I couldn't even hear the exhaust note, which was rather disappointing.

The SMG Trans...oh boy....I am not a fan. You guys are right, I'm sure there's a certain way to drive it but I just haven't found it yet. I thought I loved a firm shifting car and again, maybe I'm spoiled by the DCT but even at full strength, the SMG is a bit slow and too violent or "jolty", especially at full tilt. Is there a way to improve that? Maybe the Euro software of FAMS tune? Interestingly, the lurching about between shifts in low speed traffic didn't really bother me. I think I could live with that. Maybe the s85 goes better w/ the 6 speed manual; maybe not.

Suspension...so this is an area where I was thoroughly impressed. Yes there was some body roll but the car felt sharp, if not a tad bit harsh, planted and overall, did NOT show it's nearly 100k miles or 4k+ curb weight. Wonder if it had the suspension redone (control arms) or refreshed somewhat recently? It also felt a heck of a lot more nimble, tossable and overall more "fun" than my F10. Miles more fun I'd say. Not e90 M3 levels (or e46 m3), but not as far off as I would've thought.

Overall, I've come away feeling like the e60 did not strike me as a car that could take the place of the F10 as my daily, and it wasn't "fun" enough to warrant 3rd car/weekend car status either (maybe a manual would be different). I think if i had to do it over again, the right move would be to have bought an e60 M5 after the E90/E46 M3's or, an F80 M3. I think the driving experience/engagement gap from the manual E90/E46 M3's to the DCT F10 M5 was far too much, which has now left me "missing" that engagement. Not sure what the outcome of this exercise was, other than education for me, but I will still keep my eyes open for a nice e60 M5...or a nice e9x M3, or e46 M3 lol. If you've read this far, thank you!