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Dylan Thomas said:
I assumed this is bolt-on kit for $15k, so internal/bottom-end will not be touched to lower compression/strengthen?
With any significant amount of boost, internals will have to be strengthened and/or compression lowered, otherwise alloy block and parts will not survive.

S85 was designed for high RPM, not force feeding. ZR1 uses standard block instead of Z06 block as the latter was not durable enough for a blower. Standard block and internals were also redesigned with stronger alloys, shot peened and forged parts to handle the increased stress.

Bolting on a blower is easy, modifying an engine not designed for forced induction to last is not.
There are several c6 zo6s running around with the tvs1900 putting down 700rwhp on the stock bottom end (though headwork was done).
 
With any significant amount of boost, internals will have to be strengthened and/or compression lowered, otherwise alloy block and parts will not survive.

S85 was designed for high RPM, not force feeding. ZR1 uses standard block instead of Z06 block as the latter was not durable enough for a blower. Standard block and internals were also redesigned with stronger alloys, shot peened and forged parts to handle the increased stress.

Bolting on a blower is easy, modifying an engine not designed for forced induction to last is not.
As a general rule, that's true. But then again how do you explain the success of the E39 M5-S3???????
 
If this supercharger kit comes, I hope for sure that it will be one that doesn´t blow up the engine. I want it to be "stock-reliable", but then again, it´s ESS we are talking about, they know these things!
 
Keeping the boost below 6lbs shouldn't require a compression ratio change. not much room for an intercooler.

At <$15k I think there would be lots of takers (I'm in). It would become the best horsepower gain per dollar of anything out there. NOS is good bang for buck but you need to constantly fill the bottle.

It would require interesting intake manifold change to work with only a single S/C. Not much room for dual S/C's - perhaps need a raised hood ?
 
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There are several c6 zo6s running around with the tvs1900 putting down 700rwhp on the stock bottom end (though headwork was done).
In addition, 997TT Sledgehammer built by SPI making 800+ awhp with a pairt of gt35s with stock internal. Member KeithTa's 997TT built by Protomotive making 700+ awhp with stock internal as well. I think it's doable for our engine with very low booost (6psi).

I'm looking forward for the final pricing. $10-15k is too good to be true, but bargain always good for end-user/customer like me.:cheers:
 
Keeping the boost below 6lbs shouldn't require a compression ratio change. not much room for an intercooler.

At <$15k I think there would be lots of takers (I'm in). It would become the best horsepower gain per dollar of anything out there. NOS is good bang for buck but you need to constantly fill the bottle.

It would require interesting intake manifold change to work with only a single S/C. Not much room for dual S/C's - perhaps need a raised hood ?

You don´t need any rebuild on the hood, there is plenty of room under there. Haven´t you seen the G-Power?

G-power image by nqfaq on Photobucket
 
I'd be concerned about cooling. Even low-intensity track work in an unmodified car at 70 degrees is beyond the stock cooling system's capacity.

Also, what would supercharging do to the torque curve? It would be nice to have a solution that gave us some grunt at 3k rpm. Most of my driving is around town, and I frequently find myself at relatively low RPM in 2nd gear asking myself if this is really what a 500HP car should feel like. 5K+ is lots of fun, but below that, it's frankly disappointing.
 
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Count me in. Where do I send the deposit.

Tell us more about what you are thinking. Type of blower, intercooling, intake manifold, etc....
 
...Also, what would supercharging do to the torque curve? ...
What I liked about the AA Supercharger kit on my E46/M3 was that it retained the same torque & HP profile...There was just more power overlaid on the same power slope. Not like a turbo application which shows more of a surge.
 
I'd be concerned about cooling. Even low-intensity track work in an unmodified car at 70 degrees is beyond the stock cooling system's capacity.

Also, what would supercharging do to the torque curve? It would be nice to have a solution that gave us some grunt at 3k rpm. Most of my driving is around town, and I frequently find myself at relatively low RPM in 2nd gear asking myself if this is really what a 500HP car should feel like. 5K+ is lots of fun, but below that, it's frankly disappointing.
Easy. Drop it into 1st :7:
 
Guys (& ladies), first you can’t compare the S85 engine with any other BMW engine, including the E39 M5 or any of the Porsche engines, many of which were designed for forced induction from the beginning.

While there may be aftermarket blown Z06s on the street, none of them are official Chevy products. As I said before, bolting on a blower is easy, modifying an engine not designed for forced induction to last is not.

The ZR1 and M5's engines were designed to produce power through opposite methods.

Supercharging an engine produces increased power, (heat and stress) at low RPM.
At high RPM the blower's parasitic power drain is significant. According to Jaguar, their supercharged engine consumes 100 h.p. at max rpm. BMW designed the S85 to produce power at high rpm by using low-mass engine reciprocating components (light weight valves and hollow camshafts) and avoiding extreme torque, instead allowing the driver to extract super performance by "revving" the engine. The engine also uses an ion analysis knock sensor system, that might not work properly with different density fuel charges. (More below)

Following are outlines of each engine. Read for yourself and decide whether supercharging is a smart choice for you. It's your car and money.

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Corvette ZR1/LS3 engine

"The engine is based on a modified LS3 6.2-liter block (the LS7's cylinder walls are too thin to withstand boost), with the addition of oil squirters. These squirters direct cooling oil at the underside of the pistons, and are critical to helping the LS9 handle the increased temperatures that come with supercharging.

The LS9 is assembled by hand at GM's Performance Build Center, a unique, small-volume engine production facility in Wixom, Mich., that also builds the Corvette Z06's LS7 engine and other high-performance GM production engines.

Cylinder Block and Reciprocating Assembly Details

The LS9's aluminum cylinder block features steel, six-bolt main bearing caps, with enlarged vent windows in the second and third bulkheads for enhanced bay to bay breathing. Cast iron cylinder liners - measuring 4.06 inches (103.25 mm) in bore diameter - are inserted in the aluminum block and they are finish-bored and honed with a deck plate installed. The deck plate simulates the pressure and minute dimensional variances applied to the block when the cylinder heads are installed, ensuring a higher degree of accuracy that promotes maximum cylinder head sealing, piston ring fit and overall engine performance.

2009 Corvette ZR1 LS9 Engine Crankshaft

Nestled inside the cylinder block is a forged steel crankshaft that delivers the LS9's 3.62-inch (92 mm) stroke. It features a smaller-diameter ignition-triggering reluctor wheel and a nine-bolt flange - the outer face of the crankshaft on which the flywheel is mounted - that provides more clamping strength. Other non-supercharged 6.2L engines, such as the base Corvette's LS3, have a six-bolt flange. A torsional damper mounted to the front of the crankshaft features a keyway and friction washer, which also is designed to support the engine's high loads.

Attached to the crankshaft is a set of titanium connecting rods and forged aluminum pistons, which, when combined with the cylinder heads, delivers a 9.1:1 compression ratio. This combination is extremely durable and lightweight, enabling the LS9's high-rpm capability.

Cylinder Head Details

The basic cylinder head design of the LS9 is similar to the L92-type head found on the LS3 V-8, but it is cast with a premium A356T6 alloy that is better at handling the heat generated by the supercharged engine - particularly in the bridge area of the cylinder head, between the intake and exhaust valves.

In addition to the special aluminum alloy, each head is created with a rotocast method. Also known as spin casting, the process involves pouring the molten alloy into a rotating mold. This makes for more even distribution of the material and virtually eliminates porosity - air bubbles or pockets trapped in the casting - for a stronger finished product.

Although the heads are based on the L92 design, they feature swirl-inducing wings that are cast into the intake ports. This improves the mixture motion of the pressurized air/fuel charge. The charge enters the combustion chambers via titanium intake valves that measure 2.16 inches (55 mm) in diameter. Spent gases exit the chambers through 1.59-inch (40.4 mm) hollow stem sodium-filled exhaust valves. The titanium intake and sodium-filled exhaust valves are used for their lightweight and high-rpm capability.

To ensure sealing of the pressurized engine, unique, four-layer steel head gaskets are used with the LS9's heads.

Supercharger and Charge Cooler Details

The LS9's R2300 supercharger is a sixth-generation design from Eaton, with a case that is specific to the Corvette application. The supercharger features a new four-lobe rotor design that promotes quieter and more efficient performance, while its large, 2.3-liter displacement ensures adequate air volume at high rpm to support the engine's high-horsepower aspiration. Maximum boost pressure is 10.5 psi (0.72 bar).

The supercharger is an engine-driven air pump that contains a pair of long rotors that are twisted somewhat like pretzel sticks. As they spin around each other, incoming air is squeezed between the rotors and pushed under pressure into the engine - forcing more air into the engine than it could draw under "natural" aspiration. The rotors are driven by a pulley and belt that are connected to the engine's accessory drive system.

2009 Corvette ZR1 LS9 Engine Intercooler

Because the pressurized air is hotter than naturally aspirated air, the LS9 employs a liquid-to-air charge cooling system to reduce inlet air temperature after it exits the supercharger - reducing the inlet air temperature by up to 60 degrees C (140 F). Cooler air is denser and allows the engine to make the most of its high-pressure air charge. The charge cooling system includes a dedicated coolant circuit with a remote-mounted pump and reservoir.

The design of the supercharger case and its integrated charge cooling system was driven by the space and dimensions afforded under the Corvette's hood. To that end, the charge cooler was designed as a "dual brick" system, with a pair of low-profile heat exchangers mounted longitudinally on either side of the supercharger. Coupled with the supercharger itself, this integrated design mounts to the engine in place of a conventional intake manifold and is only slightly taller than a non-supercharged 6.2L engine. The air inlet and rotor drive pulley are positioned at the front of the supercharger.

Water pump: To compensate for the heavier load generated by the supercharger drive system, an LS9-specific water pump with increased bearing capacity is used.

Accessory drive system: In order to package the accessory drive system in the Corvette's engine compartment, the supercharger drive was integrated into the main drive system. This required a wider 11-rib accessory drive system to be used with the LS9 to support the load delivered by the supercharger.

New Six-Speed Manual Transmission

The Corvette ZR1's LS9 engine is backed by a Tremec TR6060 six-speed manual transmission, with a twin-disc clutch system. It is based on the proven T56 six-speed, but upgraded to handle the LS9's torque output and delivers improved shift quality."

LS9 Engine Details - Supercharged 2009 Corvette ZR1 Powerplant - Vette Magazine

2009 Corvette ZR1

Chevrolet Corvette Zr1 Ls9 Engine Specifications Ls9 Camshaft Photo

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BMW S85 engine

"The V10 is designed around BMW's high revving concept. Instead of setting high torque as the goal and achieving that through supercharging, BMW engineers sought superior driving performance through high revs and a surplus of power at the rear wheels much like a racecar. The S85 borders on racing engine technology with its 12.0:1 compression ratio, unique engine management and continued power output at unconventionally high engine speeds.

Its redline is 8250 rpm; its maximum power of 500 hp is achieved at 7750 rpm and its maximum torque of 383 lb-ft. is realized at 6100 rpm. This strategy, which avoids extreme torque and instead allows the driver to extract super performance by "revving" the engine, facilitates the use of relatively light, low-mass reciprocating components inside the engine.

Structurally the S85 is the first BMW V engine to use a bedplate design. The bedplate is an aluminum structure with cast iron bearing inserts that replaces individual main caps to help distribute from the crank across the entire block. BMW even went to design unique self-centering main bolts that assure better stress distribution and obtain uniform bolt deformation.

The M5 V-10 does not employ the Valvetronic system now found in BMW's regular-production V-8 and V-12 engines as well as the N52 and the turbocharged N54 6-cylinder powerplants. Though Valvetronic eliminates the energy-wasting action of throttles, it is not (yet) suitable for high-rpm engines. Instead, the M5 V-10 uses a typical BMW M valvetrain with 4 valves per cylinder actuated by "box-type" hydraulic lifters developed for motorsports. These are small, lightweight and extremely rigid, as they must be to survive an 8250-rpm environment. They are also specially shaped for efficient valve operation, with an oblong cross-section (not round like bucket tappets), slightly curved contact surface and guiding tab to ensure a consistent position in their bores.

The valves themselves are also light, with stems of only 5 mm/0.2 in. And, as on the new six-cylinder engines, the camshafts are hollow, further reducing inertia and enhancing engine response. Altogether, the valvetrain's reciprocating mass has been reduced 17.5% from the previous M5's engine; an important facet of the high-rpm concept. So are the light, but ultra-strong pistons and connecting rods.

The higher redline of the engine is also requires less valve-train mass, which for the S85 was reduced by 17.5%. Operating this is a new generation bi-VANOS system that uses higher hydraulic pressure, 80 bar (1160 psi) for faster actuation of the sliding gearbox that phase the camshafts.

M engineers and Bosch developed the MS S65 control unit specifically for the M5. Equipped with three 32-bit processors, this unit capable of performing 200 million individual calculations per second. The MS S65 reads 14 digital and 44 analog signal inputs and outputs to 62 channels and 10 serial ports, which is comparable to the system used on their F1 engine. This is eight times the processing power of the E46 ECU of only four years ago.

... BMW makes its first introduction of a combustion charge ion analysis system first to be implemented on the S85. Similar to Saab's system of the 90's and based on theories developed in the 30's, this ion analysis takes the place of a conventional knock sensor by monitoring the combustion event and combustion pressures for each cylinder. Using the spark plug as a positive pole and the cylinder as a ground, the ion current system measures the conductance of the air fuel charge throughout the combustion process. As combustion takes place and the charge chemistry changes, so does the electrical conductance of the contents of the cylinder. Based on the conductance as a function of crank angle, each individual combustion event is evaluated to better refine and control the sequential fuel and spark maps on a per cylinder basis. This is basically like a very smart version of an automotive oscilloscope. Unlike previous attempts of combustion ion charge analysis, the BMW system also discerns misfires either from inadequate fuel or spark, something neither Saab's system or a knock sensor can do."

BMW E60 M5 - European Car Magazine

2007 BMW M5 6-Speed Car Review and Specs | 2007 BMW M5 6-Speed Car Wallpaper Pictures Pics

The E60's clutch assembly is a weak link in the power train. Although manufactured of a heavier design, it's no larger than the unit used in the E39 M5. My S.A. told me it's not designed for city driving and the assembly on my beast has been rebuilt twice in the first 16K miles. I've typically gotten 50K - 80K before first clutch rebuilds with previous manual transmissions.

The E60's rear differential is also a weak link, the reason BMW initially disabled DSC Off with 6-speed models.

With aftermarket heavy duty parts, our beast's could be bulked up to handle the extra power, although IMHO turbocharging would be preferred and the cost high. Still don't know whether the ion analysis system would work properly and someone besides Steve Dinan would have to crack BMW's software encryption.

Finally, compared to the Corvette, how many heavy duty aftermarket parts have you seen for the E60 M5?
 
Dylan Thomas, very extensive detailed discussion. Excellent description.
Agreed that turbo charging is the better way to go.
Hoping seriously to prove this point after long discussions with ASR.

Thank you

Ranger
 
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Very nice, but this same thing was said for M3 E46.

"The engine is weak for turbo, SC etc etc etc"...still, those very same cars are running with turbos and superchargers without any problems.

Why wouldn´t people tune the M5?
 
Simple answer...

Very nice, but this same thing was said for M3 E46.

"The engine is weak for turbo, SC etc etc etc"...still, those very same cars are running with turbos and superchargers without any problems.
If you're talking about the E60 M5, you can’t compare the S85 engine with any other BMW engine, some of which were designed for forced induction.

Compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges.

If you think the analysis is incorrect, bolt on their supercharger and please provide yearly reports. The board could start a pool, betting on how long your engine or power train will last.... Poof :3:
 
If you think the analysis is incorrect, bolt on their supercharger and please provide yearly reports. The board could start a pool, betting on how long your engine or power train will last.... Poof :3:
Great analysis :thumbsup:

The Vette is running 10.5 psi boost, which is pretty significant. I'd agree that this level of boost should be accompanied with strengthening measures for FI, as GM has appropriately done. I don't think the S85 will pop with lower boost... ie, if I did my math correctly, 700 hp will require approx 6 psi. I'd be comfortable with this level of boost, although with the high compression of the S85, I'd probably want some charge cooling or minimally MeOH injection.

Dave
 
If you're talking about the E60 M5, you can’t compare the S85 engine with any other BMW engine, some of which were designed for forced induction.

Compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges.

If you think the analysis is incorrect, bolt on their supercharger and please provide yearly reports. The board could start a pool, betting on how long your engine or power train will last.... Poof :3:

So, you are saying that the inline 6 from M3 E46 was designed for forced induction? Ok, you are saying "some of"...but as I said before, this is exactly what people said about the M3 E46, but "they" have seen what that inline six can do.

About the tranny, yes, I have my doubt´s, but for the V10, it will hold it´s ground.

One more thing...how many ESS tuned cars do you know have had some kind of problem caused BY the SC´s?
 
Great analysis :thumbsup:

The Vette is running 10.5 psi boost, which is pretty significant. I'd agree that this level of boost should be accompanied with strengthening measures for FI, as GM has appropriately done. I don't think the S85 will pop with lower boost... ie, if I did my math correctly, 700 hp will require approx 6 psi. I'd be comfortable with this level of boost, although with the high compression of the S85, I'd probably want some charge cooling or minimally MeOH injection.

Dave
Dave, I'd like to see your calculations indicating 700 h.p. with 6.0 psi.

In addition to the math, please include the following:

1.) How are you going to beef up the engine internals, block & head alloys, hollow camshafts, pistons, rods, crankshaft, main bearing caps, pulleys, belts, radiator and other misc parts? Have you found suppliers with these aftermarket parts in stock or will you have them custom manufactured? Approximate cost?

2.) Same question about beefing up the clutch assembly and rear differential? Same question about suppliers with these aftermarket parts in stock or will you have them custom manufactured? Approximate cost?

There is one supplier currently on the board hawking a "competition" clutch, no clutch assembly. They're offering either a 90 or 120 day warranty.

3.) How will you modify the ion analysis system to guarantee it will function properly with a more highly pressurized charge? Or will you just wing it and cross your toes?

4.) What type of cooling systems are you going to use, to cool the intake charge and the blower's heat generation?

5.) Do you have a unencrypted copy of BMW's Operating System, to integrate with the blower and possibly MeOH injection systems?

6.) Have you calculated the the blower's parasitic power drain at high rpm? Is the 700 h.p. you calculated gross or net of the ~100-200 h.p. lost when the S85 revs up into it's power band?

According to Jaguar, their supercharged engine consumes 100 h.p. at max rpm, which is lower than the S85's.

2009 XF Supercharged Sedan

Engine: 4.2-liter supercharged V8
Horsepower/Torque: 420 hp @ 6,250 rpm/413 lb.-ft. @ 4,000 rpm

2009 Jaguar XF Supercharged Review

The Jag's engine has a 9:1 compression ratio.
2009 Jaguar XF Supercharged Specs | New XF Supercharged Sedan MPG, Engine, & Performance Specifications at Automotive.com

As I asked M V10, if you think you're calculations are accurate and you have all the necessary parts, bolt on their supercharger and please provide quarterly reports. Maybe local drag strip time slips? The board could start a 2nd pool, betting on how long your engine or power train will last.... Poof :cheers:
 
Guys (& ladies), first you can’t compare the S85 engine with any other BMW engine, including the E39 M5 or any of the Porsche engines, many of which were designed for forced induction from the beginning.
You can look at the ESS supercharger for the M3 S65 V8 to get a good idea. Basically the S85 with two cylinders cut off.

They are running comfortable 6 psi making big gains. Zero need to change internals.
 
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