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ESS supercharger E60 M5

460K views 1.4K replies 212 participants last post by  Mr.rs4  
#1 ·
#3 ·
+1 to Superbliciity -- any ballpark? Sounds exciting it'd be nice to get a monster E60 for a reasonable price compared to Dinan/RDSport strokers and ASR TT. Keep us updated with info as it becomes available
 
#6 ·
probably more drivealility
 
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#11 ·
How much boost is designed into the system? Driver modifiable?

Software modifications?

Any systems included to cool the intake and engine? (Water injection, etc.)

How long will the S85 engine last with a 12:1 compression, or please list internal modifications? Same question about the clutch.

Warranty?
 
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#18 ·
With any significant amount of boost, internals will have to be strengthened and/or compression lowered, otherwise alloy block and parts will not survive.

S85 was designed for high RPM, not force feeding. ZR1 uses standard block instead of Z06 block as the latter was not durable enough for a blower. Standard block and internals were also redesigned with stronger alloys, shot peened and forged parts to handle the increased stress.

Bolting on a blower is easy, modifying an engine not designed for forced induction to last is not.
 
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#16 ·
darren, that would be unfair to every other car as youd have like 800hp...lol
 
#17 ·
ESS how long are you really talking about. At Bimmerfest I was given an answer which seemed like it's not worth it.

Your price is only $2K more than the M3 SC'er?

A single SC'er for the S85 V10 engine?

Good luck with this project.

Ranger
 
#19 ·
What about warranty and the clutch? Will it be replaced?
 
#20 ·
Would almost make me want to jump to the e60 side.... ;)

Dave
 
#47 ·
I'm glad you added the qualifier 'almost' to your post. I'd be heartbroken if you went over to the dark, er E60 side:hihi: We need more FI E39 M5s not fewer.

Ray
 
#25 · (Edited)
Keeping the boost below 6lbs shouldn't require a compression ratio change. not much room for an intercooler.

At <$15k I think there would be lots of takers (I'm in). It would become the best horsepower gain per dollar of anything out there. NOS is good bang for buck but you need to constantly fill the bottle.

It would require interesting intake manifold change to work with only a single S/C. Not much room for dual S/C's - perhaps need a raised hood ?
 
#27 ·
Keeping the boost below 6lbs shouldn't require a compression ratio change. not much room for an intercooler.

At <$15k I think there would be lots of takers (I'm in). It would become the best horsepower gain per dollar of anything out there. NOS is good bang for buck but you need to constantly fill the bottle.

It would require interesting intake manifold change to work with only a single S/C. Not much room for dual S/C's - perhaps need a raised hood ?

You don´t need any rebuild on the hood, there is plenty of room under there. Haven´t you seen the G-Power?

G-power image by nqfaq on Photobucket
 
#28 ·
I'd be concerned about cooling. Even low-intensity track work in an unmodified car at 70 degrees is beyond the stock cooling system's capacity.

Also, what would supercharging do to the torque curve? It would be nice to have a solution that gave us some grunt at 3k rpm. Most of my driving is around town, and I frequently find myself at relatively low RPM in 2nd gear asking myself if this is really what a 500HP car should feel like. 5K+ is lots of fun, but below that, it's frankly disappointing.
 
#29 ·
Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/4.6.0.167 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

Count me in. Where do I send the deposit.

Tell us more about what you are thinking. Type of blower, intercooling, intake manifold, etc....
 
#33 ·
Guys (& ladies), first you can’t compare the S85 engine with any other BMW engine, including the E39 M5 or any of the Porsche engines, many of which were designed for forced induction from the beginning.

While there may be aftermarket blown Z06s on the street, none of them are official Chevy products. As I said before, bolting on a blower is easy, modifying an engine not designed for forced induction to last is not.

The ZR1 and M5's engines were designed to produce power through opposite methods.

Supercharging an engine produces increased power, (heat and stress) at low RPM.
At high RPM the blower's parasitic power drain is significant. According to Jaguar, their supercharged engine consumes 100 h.p. at max rpm. BMW designed the S85 to produce power at high rpm by using low-mass engine reciprocating components (light weight valves and hollow camshafts) and avoiding extreme torque, instead allowing the driver to extract super performance by "revving" the engine. The engine also uses an ion analysis knock sensor system, that might not work properly with different density fuel charges. (More below)

Following are outlines of each engine. Read for yourself and decide whether supercharging is a smart choice for you. It's your car and money.

------------------------------------------------------------
Corvette ZR1/LS3 engine

"The engine is based on a modified LS3 6.2-liter block (the LS7's cylinder walls are too thin to withstand boost), with the addition of oil squirters. These squirters direct cooling oil at the underside of the pistons, and are critical to helping the LS9 handle the increased temperatures that come with supercharging.

The LS9 is assembled by hand at GM's Performance Build Center, a unique, small-volume engine production facility in Wixom, Mich., that also builds the Corvette Z06's LS7 engine and other high-performance GM production engines.

Cylinder Block and Reciprocating Assembly Details

The LS9's aluminum cylinder block features steel, six-bolt main bearing caps, with enlarged vent windows in the second and third bulkheads for enhanced bay to bay breathing. Cast iron cylinder liners - measuring 4.06 inches (103.25 mm) in bore diameter - are inserted in the aluminum block and they are finish-bored and honed with a deck plate installed. The deck plate simulates the pressure and minute dimensional variances applied to the block when the cylinder heads are installed, ensuring a higher degree of accuracy that promotes maximum cylinder head sealing, piston ring fit and overall engine performance.

2009 Corvette ZR1 LS9 Engine Crankshaft

Nestled inside the cylinder block is a forged steel crankshaft that delivers the LS9's 3.62-inch (92 mm) stroke. It features a smaller-diameter ignition-triggering reluctor wheel and a nine-bolt flange - the outer face of the crankshaft on which the flywheel is mounted - that provides more clamping strength. Other non-supercharged 6.2L engines, such as the base Corvette's LS3, have a six-bolt flange. A torsional damper mounted to the front of the crankshaft features a keyway and friction washer, which also is designed to support the engine's high loads.

Attached to the crankshaft is a set of titanium connecting rods and forged aluminum pistons, which, when combined with the cylinder heads, delivers a 9.1:1 compression ratio. This combination is extremely durable and lightweight, enabling the LS9's high-rpm capability.

Cylinder Head Details

The basic cylinder head design of the LS9 is similar to the L92-type head found on the LS3 V-8, but it is cast with a premium A356T6 alloy that is better at handling the heat generated by the supercharged engine - particularly in the bridge area of the cylinder head, between the intake and exhaust valves.

In addition to the special aluminum alloy, each head is created with a rotocast method. Also known as spin casting, the process involves pouring the molten alloy into a rotating mold. This makes for more even distribution of the material and virtually eliminates porosity - air bubbles or pockets trapped in the casting - for a stronger finished product.

Although the heads are based on the L92 design, they feature swirl-inducing wings that are cast into the intake ports. This improves the mixture motion of the pressurized air/fuel charge. The charge enters the combustion chambers via titanium intake valves that measure 2.16 inches (55 mm) in diameter. Spent gases exit the chambers through 1.59-inch (40.4 mm) hollow stem sodium-filled exhaust valves. The titanium intake and sodium-filled exhaust valves are used for their lightweight and high-rpm capability.

To ensure sealing of the pressurized engine, unique, four-layer steel head gaskets are used with the LS9's heads.

Supercharger and Charge Cooler Details

The LS9's R2300 supercharger is a sixth-generation design from Eaton, with a case that is specific to the Corvette application. The supercharger features a new four-lobe rotor design that promotes quieter and more efficient performance, while its large, 2.3-liter displacement ensures adequate air volume at high rpm to support the engine's high-horsepower aspiration. Maximum boost pressure is 10.5 psi (0.72 bar).

The supercharger is an engine-driven air pump that contains a pair of long rotors that are twisted somewhat like pretzel sticks. As they spin around each other, incoming air is squeezed between the rotors and pushed under pressure into the engine - forcing more air into the engine than it could draw under "natural" aspiration. The rotors are driven by a pulley and belt that are connected to the engine's accessory drive system.

2009 Corvette ZR1 LS9 Engine Intercooler

Because the pressurized air is hotter than naturally aspirated air, the LS9 employs a liquid-to-air charge cooling system to reduce inlet air temperature after it exits the supercharger - reducing the inlet air temperature by up to 60 degrees C (140 F). Cooler air is denser and allows the engine to make the most of its high-pressure air charge. The charge cooling system includes a dedicated coolant circuit with a remote-mounted pump and reservoir.

The design of the supercharger case and its integrated charge cooling system was driven by the space and dimensions afforded under the Corvette's hood. To that end, the charge cooler was designed as a "dual brick" system, with a pair of low-profile heat exchangers mounted longitudinally on either side of the supercharger. Coupled with the supercharger itself, this integrated design mounts to the engine in place of a conventional intake manifold and is only slightly taller than a non-supercharged 6.2L engine. The air inlet and rotor drive pulley are positioned at the front of the supercharger.

Water pump: To compensate for the heavier load generated by the supercharger drive system, an LS9-specific water pump with increased bearing capacity is used.

Accessory drive system: In order to package the accessory drive system in the Corvette's engine compartment, the supercharger drive was integrated into the main drive system. This required a wider 11-rib accessory drive system to be used with the LS9 to support the load delivered by the supercharger.

New Six-Speed Manual Transmission

The Corvette ZR1's LS9 engine is backed by a Tremec TR6060 six-speed manual transmission, with a twin-disc clutch system. It is based on the proven T56 six-speed, but upgraded to handle the LS9's torque output and delivers improved shift quality."

LS9 Engine Details - Supercharged 2009 Corvette ZR1 Powerplant - Vette Magazine

2009 Corvette ZR1

Chevrolet Corvette Zr1 Ls9 Engine Specifications Ls9 Camshaft Photo

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BMW S85 engine

"The V10 is designed around BMW's high revving concept. Instead of setting high torque as the goal and achieving that through supercharging, BMW engineers sought superior driving performance through high revs and a surplus of power at the rear wheels much like a racecar. The S85 borders on racing engine technology with its 12.0:1 compression ratio, unique engine management and continued power output at unconventionally high engine speeds.

Its redline is 8250 rpm; its maximum power of 500 hp is achieved at 7750 rpm and its maximum torque of 383 lb-ft. is realized at 6100 rpm. This strategy, which avoids extreme torque and instead allows the driver to extract super performance by "revving" the engine, facilitates the use of relatively light, low-mass reciprocating components inside the engine.

Structurally the S85 is the first BMW V engine to use a bedplate design. The bedplate is an aluminum structure with cast iron bearing inserts that replaces individual main caps to help distribute from the crank across the entire block. BMW even went to design unique self-centering main bolts that assure better stress distribution and obtain uniform bolt deformation.

The M5 V-10 does not employ the Valvetronic system now found in BMW's regular-production V-8 and V-12 engines as well as the N52 and the turbocharged N54 6-cylinder powerplants. Though Valvetronic eliminates the energy-wasting action of throttles, it is not (yet) suitable for high-rpm engines. Instead, the M5 V-10 uses a typical BMW M valvetrain with 4 valves per cylinder actuated by "box-type" hydraulic lifters developed for motorsports. These are small, lightweight and extremely rigid, as they must be to survive an 8250-rpm environment. They are also specially shaped for efficient valve operation, with an oblong cross-section (not round like bucket tappets), slightly curved contact surface and guiding tab to ensure a consistent position in their bores.

The valves themselves are also light, with stems of only 5 mm/0.2 in. And, as on the new six-cylinder engines, the camshafts are hollow, further reducing inertia and enhancing engine response. Altogether, the valvetrain's reciprocating mass has been reduced 17.5% from the previous M5's engine; an important facet of the high-rpm concept. So are the light, but ultra-strong pistons and connecting rods.

The higher redline of the engine is also requires less valve-train mass, which for the S85 was reduced by 17.5%. Operating this is a new generation bi-VANOS system that uses higher hydraulic pressure, 80 bar (1160 psi) for faster actuation of the sliding gearbox that phase the camshafts.

M engineers and Bosch developed the MS S65 control unit specifically for the M5. Equipped with three 32-bit processors, this unit capable of performing 200 million individual calculations per second. The MS S65 reads 14 digital and 44 analog signal inputs and outputs to 62 channels and 10 serial ports, which is comparable to the system used on their F1 engine. This is eight times the processing power of the E46 ECU of only four years ago.

... BMW makes its first introduction of a combustion charge ion analysis system first to be implemented on the S85. Similar to Saab's system of the 90's and based on theories developed in the 30's, this ion analysis takes the place of a conventional knock sensor by monitoring the combustion event and combustion pressures for each cylinder. Using the spark plug as a positive pole and the cylinder as a ground, the ion current system measures the conductance of the air fuel charge throughout the combustion process. As combustion takes place and the charge chemistry changes, so does the electrical conductance of the contents of the cylinder. Based on the conductance as a function of crank angle, each individual combustion event is evaluated to better refine and control the sequential fuel and spark maps on a per cylinder basis. This is basically like a very smart version of an automotive oscilloscope. Unlike previous attempts of combustion ion charge analysis, the BMW system also discerns misfires either from inadequate fuel or spark, something neither Saab's system or a knock sensor can do."

BMW E60 M5 - European Car Magazine

2007 BMW M5 6-Speed Car Review and Specs | 2007 BMW M5 6-Speed Car Wallpaper Pictures Pics

The E60's clutch assembly is a weak link in the power train. Although manufactured of a heavier design, it's no larger than the unit used in the E39 M5. My S.A. told me it's not designed for city driving and the assembly on my beast has been rebuilt twice in the first 16K miles. I've typically gotten 50K - 80K before first clutch rebuilds with previous manual transmissions.

The E60's rear differential is also a weak link, the reason BMW initially disabled DSC Off with 6-speed models.

With aftermarket heavy duty parts, our beast's could be bulked up to handle the extra power, although IMHO turbocharging would be preferred and the cost high. Still don't know whether the ion analysis system would work properly and someone besides Steve Dinan would have to crack BMW's software encryption.

Finally, compared to the Corvette, how many heavy duty aftermarket parts have you seen for the E60 M5?
 
#40 ·
Guys (& ladies), first you can’t compare the S85 engine with any other BMW engine, including the E39 M5 or any of the Porsche engines, many of which were designed for forced induction from the beginning.
You can look at the ESS supercharger for the M3 S65 V8 to get a good idea. Basically the S85 with two cylinders cut off.

They are running comfortable 6 psi making big gains. Zero need to change internals.
 
#34 ·
Dylan Thomas, very extensive detailed discussion. Excellent description.
Agreed that turbo charging is the better way to go.
Hoping seriously to prove this point after long discussions with ASR.

Thank you

Ranger
 
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#36 ·
Simple answer...

Very nice, but this same thing was said for M3 E46.

"The engine is weak for turbo, SC etc etc etc"...still, those very same cars are running with turbos and superchargers without any problems.
If you're talking about the E60 M5, you can’t compare the S85 engine with any other BMW engine, some of which were designed for forced induction.

Compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges.

If you think the analysis is incorrect, bolt on their supercharger and please provide yearly reports. The board could start a pool, betting on how long your engine or power train will last.... Poof :3:
 
#43 ·
Awesome discussion!!

Ranger
 
#44 ·
Boosted Bimmers

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

:santasmile2: 1969 BMW 2002tiK & grenade motors :bullseye:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 

Attachments

#50 ·
I am NOT saying one thing against ESS. By all accounts and research they are a down right solid tuner with a long history of SC'ing. I will hazard a guess though and say the SC'er for the S85 will not materialize.

Sure there will be interest especially at the price being quoted (which seems very low). Tackling the S85 engine appears to be a whole other "beast".
It will be interesting to follow the S85 SC'ing topic. :)

Ranger
 
#51 ·
The M3 was not designed for forced induction. Neither were the high-revving, high-compression, VTEC- Honda motors.

However, there are numerous after-market S/C kits for these cars. (and I've owned them). If you keep the boost reasonable (<6lbs), manage the fuel, timing and intake temperatures - then it works.
 
#54 ·
My point of view...for what it's worth...

I wouldn't do it because of my own reliability concerns. I see on
the ESS site they do supply a supplementary warranty for an
additional charge (3-4k) but it's only valid for the term of the
original factory warranty. Those of use going out of warranty
soon are forced to fend for ourselves.

I'm not willing to test the limitations of the S85 outside of
any type of warranty. And that goes for any product that could
put extra strain on the +20k engine. That's not to say that things
won't hold up but from my standpoint the reward is not worth the risk.
 
#57 ·
Guys & ladies, if you want to force feed your engines, go ahead and do so. It’s your car and money. I provided the initial ZR1 and S85 comparison as a courtesy for board members considering the force feeding route. I have no products or services to sell, simply a member like you, trying to provide unbiased information for an informed decision.

IMO force feeding increases an engine’s internal wear, if the internal parts aren’t beefed up, it’s only a matter of time before something breaks. Watching a piston or rod exploding through a hood reminds me of a hand grenade exploding. I value reliability and the cost of a replacement S85 engine. If you like to gamble, roll the dice.

Consider the following:

“Alpina’s partnership with BMW is particularly helpful when tweaking hugely complex 7-series electronics to deal with a supercharger. The current B7 is powered by a 325 h.p. 4.4 liter V-8. To handle the 11.6 psi of intercooled boost provided by the centrifugal supercharger, the engine gets lower compression ratio pistons (9.0:1) as well as a stronger crankshaft and connecting rods.

A centrifugal supercharger doesn’t make big boost at low rpm, the initial power surge appears around 2,500 rpm.

In Europe, Alpina offers a full lineup of modified BMW’s in addition to the B7, including 5 and 6 series cars (B5 & B6) with the B7's powertrain. We think the B5 and B6 could find a following here as they have just as much horsepower as the M5 and M6, a bunch more torque (516 pounds-feet verses 383), an easier to live with automatic, a 30% better fuel economy rating and even more performance. In fact, in a test by the British mag Autocar, a B6 outperformed a M6 to 60 mph, to 100 mph and back.”
– July 2007 C&D

IMO our M5s need more torque, not horsepower. If you’re wanting more power at speeds less than roughly 60 mph, torque is more important than h.p. In U.S. everyday driving, the B7 or B5's 516 ft-lb would make our beasts much more responsive than an equivalent amount of additional h.p.

I recently wrote Mike Miller, BMW CCA Roundel Magazine’s Tech Editor, concerning my M5's long term durability and whether shop manuals or additional technical information will become available after the E60 line ceases production.

Mike replied, “You bought the first year production of an extremely complicated and totally electronic BMW... Your service advisor is correct that the clutch wears out quickly in stop-and-go urban driving... However, the warranty has insulated you from paying for first-year-production teething pains and I'm thinking the car will be pretty well sorted out by the time it falls off warranty. That is not to say, though, that it's going to be an inexpensive ownership experience; no BMW is after the warranty, and that's doubly true for M cars.

I don't expect a publicly-available factory BMW shop manual for any model ever again. We are very lucky if we get a Bentley manual at some point, but I really wouldn't expect one to cover the E60 M5. You can access the factory BMW service manuals for a fee at BMW TIS EPA but BMW has almost zero technical service information that is specific to the M engines or the M drivetrain. There are no diagnostics. Technicians are left to figure M engines out by themselves. Even if there were diagnostics, you wouldn't get anywhere without the BMW diagnostic computer.”


It’s been rumored that only Dinan has decrypted the M5's operating system, with cash and confidentiality agreements being exchanged for passwords. If this is true, all the other U.S. tuners are operating without the type of full knowledge and cooperation Alpina utilized when designing the B7.

To poster Kelster, concerning his question, “But then again how do you explain the success of the E39 M5-S3?”
The E39 engine is not the E60 engine. As a graduate engineer, why don’t you create a comparison analysis of the two power plants and perhaps answer your own question?

To poster wilsodh about the supercharged E39 engines, the same response. F.Y.I. The E60 M5's ion analysis system is unique to the S85 and the newer M3. It wasn’t used on the E39.

One thread poster quoted Steve Dinan as saying (the new V8) is “exactly the same motor with two cylinders missing. He said the programming and codes are identical. This is why it took them less than 12 months to develop the M3 stroker, instead of over 2 years for the M5 stroker. Everything just transfered over except for a new crank.” http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e6...-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/137329-ess-supercharger-e60-m5-5.html#post1571596

This information is incorrect. Among the differences between the new V8 and V10 are:

1.) Developed especially for the new eight-cylinder, the M double-VANOS now featured on the new engine requires no more than normal engine oil pressure in order to operate at maximum speed. The S85 uses a high pressure system.

2.) Upgraded MSS60 engine control unit for optimum coordination of all engine functions with the various control systems in the car. Taking more than 50 input signals...

3.) Brake Energy Regeneration with intelligent alternator control.

4.) The power curves are different, with about 85% of the engine's maximum torque available throughout the engine speed range of 6,500 rpm, with 340 Newton-metres or 251 lb-ft available from just 2,000 rpm.

5.) The new engine uses a wet sump lubrication. The entire system features two oil sumps - a small one in front of the front axle subframe and a larger sump further back. A separate reflow pump, in turn, extracts oil from the front oil sump and pumps it to the sump at the rear. The S85 uses a more complex dry/wet system.

New BMW M3 V8 Engine: In Detail - Worldcarfans

The New V8 Engine M3 GB FV

BMW’s New M3 V8 Engine: Official M V8 Engine Specs | Roadfly.com: Car Reviews & Road Tests


As BMW leaves a black hole of information on it’s Motorsport cars, most tuners are guessing and using trial and error in producing aftermarket parts. Before leaving your beast and a pile of cash with a tuner, consider the following comments from those in the business:

“There are so many products out there that seem to be just too good to be true and there are too many people out there that are more than willing to take advantage of another’s lack of knowledge. There are also so many out there that are willing to play on peoples emotions, you know, the whole you can have amazing results for practically nothing, and for only minutes a day at no cost to you. We’ve all heard it before.... You might ask yourself, can adding something that small to my vehicle produce as great results as so many people tell me they do? Or will these items really pay for themselves in the form of added fuel economy, and reduced wear and tear on my vehicle? It is these questions about these products that I am going to address, and at the same time educate, because knowledge is power my friends.

If you were to modify a gas engine for performance, you would be required to install a different camshaft, bore out the cylinders to increase displacement, install high compression pistons and heads, increase fuel intake capability by installing a larger carburetor or injection system, adding a turbo charger or supercharger, adding a chip, and enlarging the exhaust system.

If you were to make those changes to a gas engine you would truly have a ground pounding beast, but would lose every day drive ability.”

Diesel Performance- Miracle or Snake Oil by Nathan Young Auto And Trucks LIFE - FORTJ.COM - Diesel Performance- Miracle or Snake Oil by Nathan Young
--------------

"But, just because you can buy a Turbo or Supercharger does not mean you should, because most engines require a lot of prep work before being able to utilize any power added. A Turbo or Supercharger adds a lot of strain to an engine, so replacing internal parts of an engine is highly recommended to support the large increase and boost of horsepower. Furthermore, even after a turbo or SC is installed it's important to make sure your car is properly tuned before going WOT(wide open throttle). If you don't take the proper steps, installing a power adder may just blow your OEM engine apart."

Difference Between Turbo and Supercharger | The Grayline


"You mention to anyone that you work on superchargers and instantly their first question is; Can I supercharge my car?

Here is the deal. Adding a supercharger to a car without one runs about 3-5K. Yes, $3,000 - $5,000. You are not plugging in something, you have to modify the whole engine.

I get that most people do not understand what a supercharger really is, but at least know that a supercharger engine is completely different than one without it."

Blog Auto Parts supercharger - Posted by Auto Parts Pro

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Both the current engines are designed to produce horsepower at high RPM, using light weight parts, materials and manufacturing techniques. A 12.0:1 compression ratio is very high for street pump gas. Without the complex electronics, probably would self destruct over time (bent valves, etc.)

All the factory force induction models I’ve posted have been extensively modified for the additional stress.

If you just have to try forced induction, I’d suggest using a 335i-type staggered sized turbocharged system instead of a supercharger. The smaller turbo will provide more torque at low rpm, with the larger unit providing as much additional h.p. as desired.

Either way, IMHO I think you’ll be creating a grenade engine, with unknown durability and life span. If you’re a gambler, roll the dice and keep the board informed.

I've got nothing more to add to this discussion. Good luck. :byee55amg
 
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#58 ·
You've provided a full range of information Dylan, which is nice for general info and reference. I appreciate the time it takes to gather this information, make links, etc. I'm sure it is helpful to a number of board members contemplating the FI option, minimally from the standpoint of giving a conservative position on the subject. :)

The specific question that I think is on the table is, "Is it viable to moderately pressurize the S85 with stock internals?" And, I think you might also add, "..reliably and without compromise to engine life?"

These were the same questions asked years ago when pioneers like Black M5 were pursuing s/c'g the S62. Many felt the S62 couldn't hold up to the strain. Many felt longevity and reliability would surely be compromised ("The engine was designed for 400 hp, NOT 600+ HP!!!") We now know that a properly set up s/c'd S62 works just fine, lasts a long time, doesn't blow up, and generally provides a high degree of satisfaction to many owners. Even extreme set ups such as the D/A twins (mine having been built by Black M5) have given years of service with no signs of engine degradation, loss of power, or wear down.

We should keep in mind there are two general categories: lower boost and higher boost. The point I attempted to make earlier was that it wouldn't take 11.5 psi to achieve 700 hp in the S85. It would probably only take about half that. That does make a difference in the discussion, as the examples you have cited are higher-boost set ups. I've always maintained that when you start approaching double-digit boost, you should be thinking about strengthening engine internals. We DO have some data points of what happens when you don't. But we also have many many data points on ruggedness and reliability with lower boost set ups and stock engines.

Among the information you've generously provided, I've not seen any specific information that tells me that the S85 can't also be reliably pressurized at lower levels. We can argue that high rpm service will always ultimately result in increased wear and tear... it is the nature of mechanical challenges and limitations of lubricating key engine areas during high rpm operation (eg., rod bearings). In the end, if you constantly pound your engine at high rpm, you can probably expect some compromise in engine life whether or not the engine is pressurized. But the basic mechanicals of rods, bearings, crank, pistons, will be robust enough for moderate boost; they are already designed for high output service. It will be engine speed more so than a moderate increase in cylinder pressure that will produce the greatest strain.

As I indicated previously, my only misgiving about moderately pressurizing the stock S85 is the already high compression. At a minimum, I'd want a MeOH injection system in place, along with an on-board monitoring LED telling me that the system is working properly. Alcohol/water injection systems are pretty low cost, so I could see this being easily integrated into an ESS s/c set up with an economical price target.

To reiterate, I agree with the concerns you expressed about strengthening the engine... at higher boost levels. This is the territory that Ranger and a few other pioneers will be exploring (ASR 'twins' and the high-boost TT M6 under construction in LA that I know of).

Oh, and to throw out a bunch of information and then say "I'm done with this discussion.." Dude... ;)

Dave