BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

21 - 40 of 93 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,272 Posts
Looks like after the last run all plugs look almost equally dirty
Had a little time to look at the plugs enlarged. Likely this is just an image issue but 2 looks rich. Not what I was looking for though, thought I might see some signs of lean and I don't. Next time you take a shot of plugs lay them on a piece of white paper and shoot perpendicular and mainly the tips. I am pretty sure the car just needs to be run for a bit now that you have the vanos working correctly. It is not like the car just came out of the shop with the new chain. The PO put miles on it after the work and it did not break? Your car you judge. I would not beat on it but I would keep the RPM up rather than cruising at 1800.
 

·
Registered
01 M5, 03 M3
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
Likely this is just an image issue but 2 looks rich.
Yeah they all looked like a caramel color on the ceramic and grounds on one side of the plug, and fairly clean on the other. 8 looked really dark to me but it could have also been oil in the plug wells because the valve cover gaskets were seeping pretty badly before I replaced them.

I am pretty sure the car just needs to be run for a bit now that you have the vanos working correctly.
Currently my plan is double check the VANOS with ISTA, if that comes back clean I'll just drive moderately like you suggested. Looking back at the documentation, I think it was owner 3 of 5 (me being #5) who had the guides done. Owner #4 was a young guy who I would assume had hooned it so it's likely not going to blow up at least.
 

·
Registered
01 Carbon/Silverstone
Joined
·
2,657 Posts
Curious about what your fuel trims look like in INPA. At idle and during acceleration. Could shed some light.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,272 Posts
8 looked really dark to me but it could have also been oil in the plug wells because the valve cover gaskets were seeping pretty badly before I replaced them.
You had the covers off, to bad you did not check the timing then, but it is not really that simple. How long ago did you replace the cover gaskets? No leaks now? Another unique issue with these cars is they run an unrestricted vacuum equal to the vacuum in the plenum. Any gasket that leaks is an above throttle air leak or unmetered air.
Have you run a bottle of techron or guaranteed to pass through it to clean up the injectors? They likely have 20 years of buildup and are prone to sticking if not maintained. One injector throwing too much/too little fuel can make the car seem to be out of balance. You can check how long the car holds it's fuel pressure after shutdown as an indicator. I wrote a post on the how to do it, that is in the DIY, but I forget which thread.. Important basic step anyway. The fuel system can have issues and the car runs fine until something else happens then all heck breaks loose. Basically the car should hold pressure until the next start but none do. The tank/pump check valve is a POS but that is ok. It still should not drop to 0 in 30 secs. It needs to hold some pressure until the car cools and the DME will activate the pump again. If the leak is through and injector(common) then that is an issue. By pinching off the lines you can tell where it is leaking.
 

·
Registered
01 M5, 03 M3
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
You had the covers off, to bad you did not check the timing then
Yeah, at the time I wasn't suspecting timing issues. Replaced the VCG about a month ago, no leaks. Haven't run injector cleaner through but I do have some Techron actually. Will get to that after I finish ripping my hair out trying to get ISTA to connect to my car, or any car for that matter.

Curious about what your fuel trims look like in INPA. At idle and during acceleration. Could shed some light.
This is just idling for a minute so take it with a grain of salt. Currently I need to re-install the radiator so I am not running it for more than 20 seconds at a time.

947017
 

·
Registered
01 M5, 03 M3
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
It is not hard to check the timing, but it is work and there are procedures that must be followed
Right now I have the cooling system entirely out because while I was working on the car I found the radiator neck was cracked and leaking, so I was trying to determine if I should go the extra steps of pulling the valve covers off, but I really don't want to since I just put new gaskets on. I have a BMW crank pin but not the cam positioning pins. INPA actually has a procedure to help set the cams to initial position as well.... If I decide I hate myself I may pull the valve covers again and try to do the timing procedure. Does the lower sump need to come off? I just replaced that gasket too while looking for debris in the pan.
 

·
Registered
01 M5, 03 M3
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #27
Alright, got ISTA kind of sorted. For some reason in one position on the OBD connector INPA works, and in one position ISTA works... no clue.... either way I have ISTA 4.10 and I only have the following, I did not find any VANOS tests

947020
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,272 Posts
but I really don't want to since I just put new gaskets on.
Frankly I would not waste my time yet. It will be out a bit and could have some improvement, but if the vanos works right then..... I don't want to mislead so let me put it this way. I read all the posts on this being a must do opened mine up ruined the gaskets that were not leaking adjusted the timing and nothing, no difference that I could notice. Mine was not out much, but no difference.
You have a ton of other maintenance to do save that one for much later. Your time would be better spent looking at the known problems. If you have everything else sorted and the imbalance persists then do it. Looking for a small leak in the intake system will be time consuming and very hard. Big leaks easy, little leaks very hard to find.
Can't help you with your ista problem, I don't use any of that software, I use a pro scanner because that is what I learned on and it does all cars. If I had to guess I would suggest you look under service functions and see if it is not there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
183 Posts
You only need to remove the cam covers and 4 cam oil rails to check the cam timing.
Then if you need to correct it you only need to remove the Vanos units.
However, as Sailor said, the cam timing would have to be out a long way to make a difference to the way the engine is running and lower your compression readings that much.
There would also more than likely be a fault logged.
The Vanos has a much greater adjustment range than what it needs to use so it can compensate for the cam timing being out a little.
Doing a Vanos test would go a long way to tell you what the cam positions and Vanos units are doing.
In your ISTA picture, if you click on the line that says “ABL dms” in the big box on the bottom right, that will take you to the old DIS diagnostic program for the DME. Then select Expert Mode and then Service Functions. From memory the Vanos Test is either right down the bottom of the page or on the 2nd page.
But, I’ve read that ISTA won’t do a Vanos Test with a K+D Can cable - it has to be done using the genuine iCom head. I don’t know if this is true or not as I’ve only ever done it using genuine diagnostic heads.
Tool32 will do the Vanos Tests with a K+D Can cable, but it’s all in German and very convoluted as you have to select all the tests individually.
DIS is the most user friendly way to do the Vanos test with a K+D Can cable but it’s the hardest program to get working.
 

·
Registered
01 M5, 03 M3
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #30
However, as Sailor said, the cam timing would have to be out a long way to make a difference to the way the engine is running and lower your compression readings that much.
There would also more than likely be a fault logged.
The Vanos has a much greater adjustment range than what it needs to use so it can compensate for the cam timing being out a little.
Awesome, that's really what I wanted to know. I wasn't sure if VANOS would adjust in sort of a closed loop manner. That does make me feel better about it. At this point with the compression issue I feel like I'm chasing ghosts or some strange unlikely edge case like the Bank 2 head was decked and now has a higher compression than Bank 1 or something nuts like that, so I'll leave that be for now and focus on the VANOS test and more obvious maintenance.

And thank you very much for that info, I did run through ABL dms but I wasn't sure what to look for there. I'll check for Expert Mode like you mentioned. I should be able to get DIS working as I do IT for a living so I spend a lot of time troubleshooting hardware and software, these programs are just new to me so I don't have as much experience with their quirks yet.

I read all the posts on this being a must do opened mine up ruined the gaskets that were not leaking adjusted the timing and nothing, no difference that I could notice. Mine was not out much, but no difference.
Thanks, that's kind of what I was thinking. I could be spending my effort focusing on more important things. After I get it running the next thing I need to address is diff bushings (really not looking forward to that job, did it on my e46m).
 

·
Registered
01 M5, 03 M3
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
In your ISTA picture, if you click on the line that says “ABL dms” in the big box on the bottom right, that will take you to the old DIS diagnostic program for the DME. Then select Expert Mode and then Service Functions.
Tried this, I only get a readout of some information like the VIN, and it just hangs acting like it's trying to read from the ECU. I let it sit for 20 minutes and nothing happened, I got no options to run any tests or select menu options.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,272 Posts
At this point with the compression issue I feel like I'm chasing ghosts
Again these engines are different. When honed they get a bumpy finish not a perfectly flat smooth surface. This will be enhanced if the block is cold and if you did not add the right amount of oil or weight to the cyl before you started there will be leakage at the ring. I have noticed significant differences in just the weight but they need to be warm. It is the nature of the block and the free rings.
I can't say I have done one cold to know what the difference might be nor do I have a clue why one is 4% and the other 8%, but over the years I have learned that whatever the numbers people report they should be taken with a grain of salt because there are so many things that need to be done just right to be accurate.
 

·
Registered
01 M5, 03 M3
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
When honed they get a bumpy finish not a perfectly flat smooth surface. This will be enhanced if the block is cold and if you did not add the right amount of oil or weight to the cyl before you started there will be leakage at the ring.

but over the years I have learned that whatever the numbers people report they should be taken with a grain of salt because there are so many things that need to be done just right to be accurate.
Something other than the typical crosshatch? I ask this stuff because I do enjoy learning about these cars.

Also for the compression numbers I did initially were done on a warm block dry, with no oil in the cylinders. Adding oil wasn't mentioned in the how-to thread.

And I totally get it. Different cars, tools, testing methods, climates, variables... I'm only curious about it because no matter what I did one bank was always consistently lower. Wet, cold, dry, warm, whatever. At this point I'm more just morbidly curious what the answer is, even if it's "I'm doing the testing wrong"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
183 Posts
Beemer Labs have an active DIS download.

Did you do a wet compression test or cylinder leak down test?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,272 Posts
Something other than the typical crosshatch?
Much different, Not sure I completely understand what they are going for but Ausil is different. There is an extra step that raises the silica over the height of the Alum so when the Alum expands it is level with the silica, best I can tell. Do a net search on the topic there is tons of info out there, rather technical but it is there.
 

·
Registered
01 M5, 03 M3
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
Finally got the results back from the oil analysis I ordered. Thoughts? I know just one sample is not enough to go by, especially because I don't know the mileage of the last oil change.

947075
 

·
Registered
01 Carbon/Silverstone
Joined
·
2,657 Posts
Here is procedure for VANOS test in ISTA:


Your fuel trims look normal at idle so doesn't look like there is a vacuum leak affecting AFR.

The UOA shows iron and copper up but lead normal. What comments did they give you? I think trends are more important.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,272 Posts
especially because I don't know the mileage of the last oil change.
Does the car have an oil cooler? You also don't know if the last oil change was with a different oil than had been used before. History of tests is more important than one test.
Here is one example of why someone could get high copper and it would be of little concern. Thin our oil heat exchangers are copper, but not positive since there is so much Alum used in the car.
 

·
Registered
01 M5, 03 M3
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #39 (Edited)
You also don't know if the last oil change was with a different oil than had been used before.
No oil cooler, I do know PO used Liquimoly 10w-60 so I went with that as well.

Here is procedure for VANOS test in ISTA:

What comments did they give you?
That procedure linked is for the e60 / s85. I don't think it applies to e39 / s62 but I could be mistaken.

And the comments for the oil analysis are on that screenshot above.

Beemer Labs have an active DIS download.

Did you do a wet compression test or cylinder leak down test?
Thanks, giving that a try. Leakdown results are in post 1. Wet tests did not improve compression more than 5 psi on any cylinder.
 
21 - 40 of 93 Posts
Top