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The Schroths, with anti-submarine (ASM) technology, is the only 4 point I'd run in a street car.



Yup, I was hitting the kerbs and bouncing around -- not to mention bracing myself on the sweepers 🤣😂.

BTW...my brakes felt squishy compared to driving the e30s back to back to back. I think I'm on RBF 600. Never had the chance to flush and go with SRF.
My past e30 had phenomenal brake feel along with a hard short travel pedal, my friend at the time also test drove an m3 e30 and related the most amazing feature was the brakes, an order of magnitude more responsive than the 911 of the day.
I only test drive cars i am serious about buying, thus could not see paying twice the price of a run of the mill e30, wished i had researched and paid the $10,000 on a low mile m3 back in 1993.

My point being the heavier the car, the more boost required hence it is difficult to make the e60 feel like an e30.
 

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My point being the heavier the car, the more boost required hence it is difficult to make the e60 feel like an e30.
Exactly! With that said, it is fun making the e60 do things that shouldn't be possible.
 
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But to make en e30 feel like and e60! Now that would take an engine swap to atleast an S54/65. Or an LS.
 

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But to make en e30 feel like and e60! Now that would take an engine swap to atleast an S54/65. Or an LS.
BMW engineers in those days were at the top of their game, I would not want to risk loosing the balance they achieved, a heavier drive train to hold the extra power, larger brakes to stop that power, will change the steering and driving feel of the e30 drastically. better to use an e46 as the base for an s65 swap close to same weight as s54, done before:


with compromises
 

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2009 BMW E63 M6, Sapphire Black
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Been catching up on this post, started reading at the beginning. thought I wanted to "track" my car, but didn't know how much was involved or how much wear and tear it puts on parts. getting a good lesson here.

Soooooo, my question relates to that. I may have been using the wrong terminology. What I really want to do is find a legal way to drive it harder and faster, but not race. I want to push it hard on the straights, and take curves at a spirited turn, but not slam on the brakes trying to get the best time. Is there such a thing for doing this? I had thoughts of getting lessons at the local track, and rolling over there mid-week when no one is around and just ripping loose the car for a while.

Is this typically found? Can you get by with factory stuff and not ruin tires, pads and suspension parts doing this?

Part of the reason I ask is my M6 needs new front hydro-bearings. They are loose at 37K miles. Just bought the car, and I want it to feel brand new, so I'm thinking, hell, while down there, I'm replacing everything. Make it new. For a mere 2K, I have a brand new car. Already have all the special tools to do it so no cost there. Figured, get it done, to the alignment rack once, and done. Plus I get to know the car a little better doing all this.

Well, after reading thru the 1st few pages of this thread, I'm thinking, if I'm gonna beat on this thing at a track, then maybe I should wear those parts out and then replace, rather than do the entire suspension at once.

anyway, sorry for long post, more or less 2 questions here.
thanks guys
 

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Been catching up on this post, started reading at the beginning. thought I wanted to "track" my car, but didn't know how much was involved or how much wear and tear it puts on parts. getting a good lesson here.

Soooooo, my question relates to that. I may have been using the wrong terminology. What I really want to do is find a legal way to drive it harder and faster, but not race. I want to push it hard on the straights, and take curves at a spirited turn, but not slam on the brakes trying to get the best time. Is there such a thing for doing this? I had thoughts of getting lessons at the local track, and rolling over there mid-week when no one is around and just ripping loose the car for a while.

Is this typically found? Can you get by with factory stuff and not ruin tires, pads and suspension parts doing this?

Part of the reason I ask is my M6 needs new front hydro-bearings. They are loose at 37K miles. Just bought the car, and I want it to feel brand new, so I'm thinking, hell, while down there, I'm replacing everything. Make it new. For a mere 2K, I have a brand new car. Already have all the special tools to do it so no cost there. Figured, get it done, to the alignment rack once, and done. Plus I get to know the car a little better doing all this.

Well, after reading thru the 1st few pages of this thread, I'm thinking, if I'm gonna beat on this thing at a track, then maybe I should wear those parts out and then replace, rather than do the entire suspension at once.

anyway, sorry for long post, more or less 2 questions here.
thanks guys
Been there done that, got the T-shirt.
Bought a $ 15,000 m5, did nothing but change oil, started beating on it, got faster quick.

was wearing out rear brake pads fast in M-dynamic mode, was also concerned that it over corrected a lot during interventions.

Had the bright idea to turn off DSC all together, now thinking that my worn out suspension contributed to eratic M-Dynamic behavior plus the loose parts made it difficult to control in 90 mph corners, in hindsight I would have been better served to field a car where everything had been gone through replaced and not left to chance.

Think of pre-flight checklist, no second chance at the speeds the m5 can attain, as in flying a plane

Then and now:

Pay for the suspension now or pay a lot later

20181009_185737.jpg
thumbnail_IMG_1695.jpg
 

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ouch! maybe I should start out with an old toyota!
 

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Wow hope you are physically ok. I can see that you might stay off the horse for a bit, but hopefully you hop back on after thinking about it for a bit. It's like riding a motorcycle, it's not a matter of if you will go down, it's when you go down. I've had my share of wrecks despite my training.

I generally refrain from saying it because I never know anyone's skill level, but DSC is there to save your life, your car, and your wallet, but DSC still can't violate the laws of physics. The MDM thresholds are set by expert drivers doing reference laps with everything off. I know it's not what people want to hear, but the expert factory drivers have a hard time beating the reference MDM time by more than 5%. DSC can independently brake each of the 4 wheels to counteract over/under rotation, no human can ever do that.

If you did have a suspension failure or loose suspension then it's a big risk to even take it on the road. You could have had a bolt failure from reusing bolts or over torquing. This is why I said elsewhere to NEVER eff around with chassis fasteners, the loads from driving on a track can easily make the fasteners fail.
 

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ouch! maybe I should start out with an old toyota!
It depends on the track, in my case there was only 30 feet of run off , if I had another 20 feet and I may have saved it.

reviewed some YouTube NCM track vids of this area after the fact ( my Germanic bent on failure analysis) it appears that this spot of Armco gets hit a lot, each vid had a new set of skid marks and repairs

I did not recognize this risk, just a small kink in the straight I had been taking flat out all day, no lift while only a small flick of steering was required.

Since I was at 6,000 rpm the insane part of the power band once I broke loose, gained 2,000 rpm in a split second.
Left some really thick wheel spin stripes down backside of hill.

In the future I will scout tracks better seek out local knowledge review vids, keep DSC enabled.
However previous owner had dsc problems, He purchased a low cost “rebuilt unit”

Hence I thought my own driving skills would serve me better
 

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Soooooo, my question relates to that. I may have been using the wrong terminology. What I really want to do is find a legal way to drive it harder and faster, but not race. I want to push it hard on the straights, and take curves at a spirited turn, but not slam on the brakes trying to get the best time. Is there such a thing for doing this? I had thoughts of getting lessons at the local track, and rolling over there mid-week when no one is around and just ripping loose the car for a while.
Join BMW CCA and sign up for HPDE, High Performance Driver Education. These are not timed events. Drivers are classed by ability and provided instruction. Having an instructor is like having a cheat sheet for the track to teach you the line. I will always take a coach, when given the opportunity.

NASAproracing.com also provides events and driver education.

MotorsportReg | racing, track day, HPDE, autocross, sport bike, karting & motocross events provides links to events in your area.
 

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Soooooo, my question relates to that. I may have been using the wrong terminology. What I really want to do is find a legal way to drive it harder and faster, but not race. I want to push it hard on the straights, and take curves at a spirited turn, but not slam on the brakes trying to get the best time. Is there such a thing for doing this? I had thoughts of getting lessons at the local track, and rolling over there mid-week when no one is around and just ripping loose the car for a while.

Is this typically found? Can you get by with factory stuff and not ruin tires, pads and suspension parts doing this?
Any of the bigger HPDE organizers will start you out in a novice group with an instructor, where you will first learn the proper racing line, track etiquette, situational awareness, etc etc. You don't have any obligation to try and push the car 10/10ths right off the bat. In fact, I've gone to a few events where people basically just cruise around the whole day or even weekend. Some of your trackmates may question what you're doing, but as long as you let them pass when you're supposed to, it'll be all good.
 

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Wow hope you are physically ok. I can see that you might stay off the horse for a bit, but hopefully you hop back on after thinking about it for a bit. It's like riding a motorcycle, it's not a matter of if you will go down, it's when you go down. I've had my share of wrecks despite my training.

I generally refrain from saying it because I never know anyone's skill level, but DSC is there to save your life, your car, and your wallet, but DSC still can't violate the laws of physics. The MDM thresholds are set by expert drivers doing reference laps with everything off. I know it's not what people want to hear, but the expert factory drivers have a hard time beating the reference MDM time by more than 5%. DSC can independently brake each of the 4 wheels to counteract over/under rotation, no human can ever do that.

If you did have a suspension failure or loose suspension then it's a big risk to even take it on the road. You could have had a bolt failure from reusing bolts or over torquing. This is why I said elsewhere to NEVER eff around with chassis fasteners, the loads from driving on a track can easily make the fasteners fail.
I walked away without a scratch, or sore neck, or sore back, or any kind of bruise.

Only a slight abrasion on my scalp from hitting the the alcantera head liner after my made in China Helmet popped off while bouncing along the berms in front of recently replaced Armco posts.

I have missed 6 already payed for track days since accident.

Was hoping Troy would give me a loaner while waiting to get my 6.0 stroker m5 finished. Got no response

I should not have sent him a picture of my wrecked m5. LOL

wish I was on track, paid for 32 events this year upfront, thought I would have a back up car in the 6.0

Drive Club event every week, all I can do is watch the Facebook vids posted on what I am missing.

The rest of the group is knocking seconds off lap times every week, race tires love the hot weather
 

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Discussion Starter #413
What they said^. You only have to drive as hard as you care too.

Yesterday I was ripping for the first two sessions and sliding all over the place(new/better tires on the list). After that I came down a notch or two and really focused on my lines and braking. There was a guy in and old Pruis running flat out and just turning the wheel having a blast, I started in an E38 740il. Bring what you got and have fun that is the goal. If you really love it you can spend $600m like Mercedes and run an F1 team.
 

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Bring what you got and have fun that is the goal.
"Run what you brung!" There is no shame.

Just don't leak any fluids and everyone is happy!
 

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Discussion Starter #416
So here is the track report for the Ridge Motorsports Park with Turn2 racing, July 21
It was hot(well for us up in the PNW) and all of the groups were full. They put me in B group in spite of signing up in A group. It did not turn out to be a problem as everyone(even the Prius) was running fast and the point buys were quick.
The audio is much better with the earbuds plugged in up to about 100mph

The tires were sliding all over the place and I thought they were going to fly apart. To my great surprise after the first session they looked just fine. I started at 44psi and by the end of the day I had the rears down to 34 and the fronts down to 38. The wear stayed off of the side wall so I would give the PSS a thumbs up for stiff sidewalls and a good tire when they get hot.

The car made no complaints until session 3, I was sitting waiting to go and the trans was going in and out of fail safe. To spare my fellow track mates a failure on the track I pulled out of the staging area. I had my laptop this time so I plugged in and ran adaptations for the SMG. Due to the fact that I replaced the clutch solenoid seals I think it may have been off a bit? After that I ran the rest of the day with no problems. I tried leaving the SMG in S3 to keep the pressure down but if you are not on the throttle the shifts throw off your rhythm, I bumped it up to S5 with no other problems for the rest of the day.

The engine is another story. I was running in P500 for the first two sessions and having a blast, over steer at will. I was being careful in the high speed sweepers because I felt like a tad to much gas would put me in the weeds. I started the second session in P400 figuring with some slack in the peddle I could make up for the down grade, NO FUN! Back up to P500, the car really snaps up to speed when you hit it. Now the bad news, I was running down the straight. Well lets say out running a Tesla dual motor and the engine went into failsafe. I did out run the Tesla but it cost me. I shut off and restarted the car on the track and finished the session at P400. I tried again on the fourth session to run at P500 but the car was not having it. I finished the day at P400 but I still had a blast working on my lines and didn't have to worry about the big sweepers. I'm sure it's the exhaust cam over-retarded which I haven't seen since the last hot track day. The oil temp was just above 210.

The brakes kick ***! The hawk DTC 60 are awesome track pads. They never faded and even left some peddle before the ABS would kick in. I found a new technique that I could work on as well. With the peddle hard on give the wheel a twist late into the corner and with all of the weight forward the rear will come around. It's new for me so I wasn't really that consistent but when you get it right it makes a huge difference. Happy with the brakes for sure.

For the future I need some tires big time! I'm thinking of PS4, cup2's or throwing some slicks on my 18's. I do have some concerns about the stress on the drive train but a 3.91 rear diff would not break my heart. The top end of the motor needs some love. I have a code for PCV and the TA's have been on my list. The upgraded exhaust cam gears may get the nod at $2000. And last but not least B16's and some strut arms. I almost forgot I have a sway bay waiting for install as well.

That's it for me other than a CCC with The Porsche club on Saturday. I'm back on the ship August 5 and can only hope for some track days when I get off at the end of September.
 

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Off topic, but, I just bought a 2000 M Roadster yesterday that will be my main track car. It was a good deal.
 

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Timely info on getting your car on the track for the first time:
 

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@Alan Arnesen are you still using my set of DTC pads? Just curious as the set I got this year seems to be halfway worn with 3 track days. If so yours are wearing at a much slower rate!

In the same manner I suggested to go big or nothing with track pads I suggest to do the same with tires. The PS4 may be the best of street tires. But a street tire nonetheless. You are doing trackdays often enough that a dedicated track set makes sense. One advantage of going with an 18" set is the car really wakes up due to the smaller tires. Same effect as a higher final ratio. Downside is engine will run hotter.
 

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I found a new technique that I could work on as well. With the peddle hard on give the wheel a twist late into the corner and with all of the weight forward the rear will come around. It's new for me so I wasn't really that consistent but when you get it right it makes a huge difference. Happy with the brakes for sure.
That's called trailbraking. It's wonderful and much easier to do on a 2 pedal setup. It works really nice to get the car rotated but make sure you hit the apex and you will be able to get back on the throttle with the car pointed where you want. Be very careful that you slow down enough though in a straight line, otherwise you will enter the corner too fast and then exceed the grip of the front tires and understeer (either straight into the wall or gravel pit). You can also get snap oversteer too if the rear is unloaded to much and the car isn't straight. This often happens in panic braking. This is where MDM can really be a safety net. Be smooth with your inputs to the wheel and also coming off the brake too. Trailbraking only works if the front tires are hooked up and not trying to brake and change direction, otherwise that's classic late braking and understeer.
 
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