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E60 M5 track thread

114K views 1K replies 42 participants last post by  Alan Arnesen 
#1 ·
I have had my beast at the track a few times now. Starting to mess with the setup which is half the fun. I was wondering about having a thread for people that track their cars? I know from my research that there are a few that take there beasts to the track. It is really what these cars are meant to do.

I put in some EBC yellow stuff pads and so far they have been good. No fade at the track and just a bit of squeaking just before the car stops on the street. I would rate them as comparable to Hawk HP+. The cool carbon S/T pads were better on the street. The hard part is finding the same brand and style for the front and rear. After these are gone I may opt for a dedicated track pad and swap them out on the days I go.

The car is really showing the need for camber. The outside of the fronts are gone, I run the tires at 50psi hot. I just discovered that if you pull the pin on the strut tower there is more camber to be had. It kind of pisses me off that I didn't figure it out sooner. I may buy some Kmac camber plates or some lower strut are bushings that are adjustable. Hopefully someone will pop in with some feedback? I am concerned about moving one point on the lower end VS. the whole upper end. -2.5 deg seems to be the limit for a combo car.

Trying to get the fast attack tune in right now and I have an occasional problem with the engine going into limp mode at the end of the straight. For tires I and running conti extreme sport contacts, no complaints for a performance street tire. When they are gone I might look at some Toyo track tires, I see them on a lot of cars.

Well there it is for a start. We'll see who is out there? Some track feedback would be cool too. I'm heading to Pacific on Friday for the first time in this car and PIR on the 5th for the first time on that track.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
I’ve tracked my e60 a bunch.

The easy stuff:

SS lines, better brake fluids, and pads are your friends at the track — as you know. Brakes are a weak point with our heavy e60s.

Camber plates will help with understeer. And Why are you at a hot 50#s? 30# to 35# hot is the sweet spot for this chassis.

Try to remove some weight at the corners, with light wheels and light brakes. Ditch heavy 20” wheels for lightweight 18” or 19” wheels. A good BBK should weigh less than the stock configuration.

If you want to go “all in” with the e60, look at my signature! Kidding aside look at some Coilovers and upgraded/custom diff with more aggressive ramp angles over the ///M diff. I just went overboard and replaced my old Coilovers with a full Motorsports setup from MCS.

At the track you will find more time in the corners, with better brakes/suspension/diff. As it is, we have plenty of power. The diff helps put the power down and the suspension helps keep the tires on the tarmac.

My latest suspension upgrade:
 
#3 ·
I run 50# trying to keep off the sidewall. I started lower on my E38 and then after a few events went up to 50, it seemed to help with such a heavy car. If I get off the sidewall with camber I may start to lower the pressure. When I come off the track I can see where the tire is running. Maybe I am just leaning on the car to hard in the corners for my setup.

Coilovers are on the list. It would be a massive change and I would like to get settled in the car first.
 
#4 ·
If memory is right I also ended with higher than stock pressures last year around 45-ish hot. Problem using stock suspension is the front shoulders take a beating. I'd be afraid AF of a front tire failure running 30-35 hot. With stock suspension the shoulders started to peel when I used BFG R1s too. Can't run lower air until geometry is fixed.

I was boiling fluid using ATE typ 200 but zero issues with Castrol SRF. Great stuff. As for pads I have hawk dtc60s which are available for all corners. Not a street-friendly pad but it's not meant to be. Pretty common to see people swapping pads at chicago autobahn btw. At blackhawk not so much.

A nice upgrade is swaybars. I wrote about them on a separate thread but basically the e64 (or was it e63?) front sway is comparable to a RDS front. For the rear the aftermarket options are stiffer than anything stock, but the stock e63/4 work as well.
 
#13 ·
A nice upgrade is swaybars. I wrote about them on a separate thread but basically the e64 (or was it e63?) front sway is comparable to a RDS front. For the rear the aftermarket options are stiffer than anything stock, but the stock e63/4 work as well.
This site is almost worthless now trying to access the huge technical information from zillions of prior posts. It's really sad they have destroyed a formerly almost limitless store of knowledge. I tried to search for posts I did on the E60 sway bars using factory parts, but even trying the google "site" thing didn't work any longer (and of course advanced search is long gone from this site). I had to go to my local car club's private forum to find what I posted.

You can use the front sway bar from the M6 competition package (29mm) plus add the Dinan roll control part to it. For the rear use the E64 M6 (convertible) 20mm bar. That was an attempt to get around the failing, snapping, RD sport bar issues. If I could search the board, I think that the post would show all the part numbers, etc.
 
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#5 ·
I just tracked it over the weekend....

Bilstein shocks, stock springs, suspension (sways, bushings, etc..), Active Autowerke Catback exhaust, RMS catless Headers, FastAttack Jim's 93 Octane Tune, RPI scoops, Sprint Booster, everything else is stock (Brakes, rotors, BF Goodrich wheels (need camber), it ran beautifully felt heavy a little but I think it's because of the tires not helping and need to update my sway bars...other than that it's a hella fun track ride!

Btw...I had temporary track wrap.which did not stick well to my ceramic coated car...but it did sort of help, just not as photogenic [emoji41][emoji28]


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#63 ·
I just tracked it over the weekend....

Bilstein shocks, stock springs, suspension (sways, bushings, etc..), Active Autowerke Catback exhaust, RMS catless Headers, FastAttack Jim's 93 Octane Tune, RPI scoops, Sprint Booster, everything else is stock (Brakes, rotors, BF Goodrich wheels (need camber), it ran beautifully felt heavy a little but I think it's because of the tires not helping and need to update my sway bars...other than that it's a hella fun track ride!

Btw...I had temporary track wrap.which did not stick well to my ceramic coated car...but it did sort of help, just not as photogenic [emoji41][emoji28]
What pressures were you running? Looks like you've got eibach springs and dinan caster plates since this pic. What are your plans for swaybars? E64 ones or something else?
 
#6 · (Edited)
The stock geometry is not doing any favors at the track -- it's been 8 years since I ran stock geometry at the track. I think I ran a weekend and realized I needed to make a change.

I would also add, every bit of rubber bushing on your suspension will get chewed up from the braking zones. I eventually went to monoballs, which helped.

My tires @32# with -2.1 upfront, with stiffer sways and a coils. Nearly perfect wear at Buttonwillow.
930109
 
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#7 ·
Wow what a difference! I guess that settles it, the first thing that should be done is suspension. Camber, sway bars and coilovers. I haven't shredded my tires that bad but I guess it's coming. At least I will have a little more for this Friday.
As for the tune Jim sent me a file to write because the DME would not read. I was able to write and now I'm waiting for my tune. I have been getting cat codes IE: emissions. The tune should get rid of that at least. I'm hoping the vanos mods will get rid of the occasional limp mode at the track.
I'm heading to Pacific Raceways in Kent Wa. for a BMW event. They do HPDE with instructors on the track and CCC in the parking lot. I have not been on this track with my M5 and they did some resurfacing on the back side. I will be interested in how the M5 does as compared to my 740. The long semi-straight should be exciting. I could hit 130 in my 740 and I think I will get past 150 in the M5.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Non adjustable, but a good stock+ mod:

My mentality, which is warped/wrong, if my shock is coming off, then I’m replacing everything.

The previous owner of my car — 8 years ago, installed the Dinan stage II suspension. Great set up for street car...I went to replace it with a CKS coil system I ran for 60,000+. I rolled the dice with CKS v. KV3 and was pleasantly surprised. The CKS was an improvement over Dinan, for a Street car that spends time at the track.

Now, I’m on my third suspension, and decided to go (almost) whole-hog-racecar, with an MCS motorsport suspension, that is a race suspension, you can drive on the street.
 
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#11 ·
I put KMAC on my E38 with EDC, I can get just above -2 deg of camber. They are not as adjustable loaded as claimed but they do the job. Believe it or not but my e38 is only 400# heavier than my E60. I have been spending my way up for a couple of years and the car is great fun to drive on the track. Most people are surprised how fast it is for a living room.

I just took my E60 out for a test drive. Whatever Jim had me load into the DME it is awesome. The midrange power is way up. I squeezed that little bit of extra camber out of the stock set up and it seems a little sharper on the turn in. I changed the diff oil and I'm going to check the tow on the front and rear tomorrow. After that I ripped the interior out of my 69 390 AMX for a full resto.
 
#12 ·
I put KMAC on my E38 with EDC, I can get just above -2 deg of camber. They are not as adjustable loaded as claimed but they do the job. Believe it or not but my e38 is only 400# heavier than my E60. I have been spending my way up for a couple of years and the car is great fun to drive on the track. Most people are surprised how fast it is for a living room.

I just took my E60 out for a test drive. Whatever Jim had me load into the DME it is awesome. The midrange power is way up. I squeezed that little bit of extra camber out of the stock set up and it seems a little sharper on the turn in. I changed the diff oil and I'm going to check the tow on the front and rear tomorrow. After that I ripped the interior out of my 69 390 AMX for a full resto.
From memory, the e38 is smaller than the f10.

Cornering pretty flat, with my old suspension at CalSpeedway.
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#14 ·
Yeah for fronts the e63 comp is the same as the e64 which luckily can be found cheap on yards, got mine from car-part.com

Google seems to work:
 
#16 ·
So I have and interesting thought/question? So I have been doing some research and you can get coilovers with camber adjustment from $800- 6000. The KMAC camber plates are almost $600. It would seem if you are willing to abandon your EDC coilovers would be the better way to go. That being said what exactly are you trying to address on the car?

The additional camber would be trying to address the shift in weight in a corner causing the tire to roll on its side. The stiffer coilover would reduce the weight shift and allow the camber to pick up the rest.

Here is the question, bigger sway bars? The sway bar transmits the force from one wheel to the other wheel forcing it down onto the road. Or it resists the compression on the inside wheel from the unloading of the outside wheel? In any case it would seem that in a track application a bigger sway bar would make little difference with the forces involved. Certainly on the street it would have a noticeable effect. So again I think the best money, effort and effect on performance would be coilovers.

Applying this to the brake question the biggest improvement would be better pads. Sure bigger calipers and rotors would add to the performance but by how much? I have found that better pads can add huge increases in performance.

I think for my dollars I will unfortunately abandon the EDC and put in coilovers. It seems that so far this car if it stays in the family will be serving track duty.
 
#17 ·
So again I think the best money, effort and effect on performance would be coilovers.

Applying this to the brake question the biggest improvement would be better pads. Sure bigger calipers and rotors would add to the performance but by how much? I have found that better pads can add huge increases in performance.


I think for my dollars I will unfortunately abandon the EDC and put in coilovers. It seems that so far this car if it stays in the family will be serving track duty.
I came to the same conclusion with running coils and abandoning the EDC. You can easily code out the EDC code afterwards.

Tire selection/adhesion will always be the limiting factor for improved braking "performance".

The biggest reason I went to a BBK: reduction of the unsprung mass. Between my lightweight Dinan wheels and my BBK, I nearly dropped 20#s per corner v. OEM.
 
#20 ·
So I have Breyen Spartan 19" wheels, not sure if they are heavy or light? They have the factory sizes, 285/35 and 255/40. I just tried swapping them and of course the tire rubs on the front. I think the 275/35's will fit both wheel sizes. I also think you have some room to push the rim out up front with spacers.

Heading to Pacific tomorrow with the fast attack tune and some extra camber. They have resurfaced the lower section so I'm pumped to check it out.
 
#21 ·
I had a great day at Pacific. My instructor upgraded me to group C after I arrived. As a result I had a different instructor, he drove a GT3 Porsche. My group was the first out and I had my car at full power. After warming up I started rocking right out of the gate and totally blew turn one at about 145mph. I touched the brakes and must have scared my instructor, he said don't do that again! At the debrief for my group someone made a comment about it as well. It's fun to push past the limits but not at 145 and unplanned. In my defence I haven't been to Pacific in over a year and never in my M5.

The rest of that session was uneventful. I slowed down and followed the line my instructor was coaching me one. The next two sessions I cut the power back so I didn't have to worry so much about the corner exit and braking zones. When I got the turn in and braking in the right spots the car felt smooth and happy. When I got it wrong the car was all over the place and I was fighting the wheel. After the third session my instructor recommended and got me approved to drive solo. He was impressed at how well I handled such a heavy powerful car. My last time out was awesome. I was running just behind an M3 for several laps until we hit some traffic and he got a point and I didn't. Here's a look at my fastest lap of the day,

The lap timer is buggy for some reason in my M5. The GPS and OBD data cuts in and out.

So I have only about 2.5 days on my EBC yellow stuff brake pads and they are almost gone. To my surprise the rears are worn more than the fronts. On my E38 the Hawk and cool carbon pads lasted four track days with some pad left, that's just the front. The rears would last almost twice as long as the fronts. I need some new pads and to figure out why the rears are going so fast? That may be the cause of the wiggle in the rear under hard braking at the end of the straight. So I have the EBC yellow stuff that work fine but wear fast for about $300, Hawk HPS 5.0 are about the same but lasted longer on my E38, Potterfield RS4 that I have never heard of for $600 and of course Pagid for about $1000. I need them by September 5th so that may be a limitation.

I am happy to report that the tires are holding up well. I pulled the pin from the strut tower and grabbed some extra camber, -2. The rear is about -1.5. The tow was out about 1/8" out so I pulled it in a little. With the adjustments and better driving the wear line has moved off the sidewall and just to the edge of the tread. You can see the old line on the front way out by the edge and the new line in closer to the tread. The rears look great. Based on what I am getting from the factory set up I may just grab some Dinan plates until the coilovers go in.
930215

930216

So like I always say, take your car to the track and it will tell you what it needs. Brakes!
I almost forgot, I put a tune in from Jim at fast attack. It is not my final tune but it is definitely better than what was in there. The Midrange power is way up and as a result I was staying lower in the rpm rage, 6k. The emissions code is up all the time now but that is going away. And the big news, no engine failsafe for Bank 2 over retarded. Super happy with the engine and power at 400.
 
#22 ·
So I have the EBC yellow stuff that work fine but wear fast for about $300, Hawk HPS 5.0 are about the same but lasted longer on my E38, Potterfield RS4 that I have never heard of for $600 and of course Pagid for about $1000. I need them by September 5th so that may be a limitation.
Nice report, interesting to see what max stock camber did.

You could also buy my set of used for one track-day hawk dtc60's. IMO it's a no-brainer considering you get all 4 corners for what one axle will cost you. And as far as performance they're the best of the bunch. I listed thickness measurements on my FS post.
 
#24 ·
Well I ordered Carbotech XP10 for all four corners. Going to try and put in some brake lines and bushings if I get them in time? I looked all over and to get matching pads on all four corners there are not many choices. Lots of options for the rear but few for the front. The cost is almost double of the EBC, Hawk and Cool Carbon S/T pads. I'm pretty sure they will be noisy on the street and I hope they do not kill my rotors? And they sure as hell better stop the car!

PIR on September 5th. Feel pretty good about the engine, tires and suspension. I'm going to try and get the lap timer to work more consistently so people can see the speed, revs and gears. It works great in my E38.
 
#39 ·
I also have track day on September 7th-8th at BIR ( Brainerd international raceway). I had used the Carbotech XP8 for all 4 corners and they performed well 2 years ago at BIR.
Funny thing is I just ordered another set of XP8s from bimmerworld with the same Price increase you mentioned compared to the last time i bought a set from them.
 
#25 ·
Need some insight? I took the wheels off today to have a look at the brake pads. The rears are toast, maybe 1/8" of pad. The front for 2.5 days is maybe at 70%, not bad. Why is the rear wearing so fast? The TC is off and even if it was on it cuts engine power? Could the ABS, DSC be getting in the way?

The Carbotech pads are canceled. I got a call from Bimmerworld that the price for the fronts went from $240 to $580. I found some Hawk pads that are $440 and they are on the way.
 
#26 ·
#29 ·
Hawk DTC-60, I found a supplier in Oregon that should get them to me by next Tuesday? http://www.hawkpadsdirect.com The website above as every brand and type of pad that I found searching all over the internet in one place. I opened up the brake cooling yesterday,
930390
930391

I have RPI intakes with block off plates so there is nothing going upstairs. You can see that the stock strut are bushing is flexing under braking and the tire is rubbing the inner fender. So far my research has yielded that M5's eat rear pads. It must be the the ABS or DSC deteching slip under heavy braking and modulating?
 
#30 · (Edited)
I had the same flex issue until I switched to monoballs. My fender liners looked the same, pre-monoballs.

If you're going to track a heavy e60, take a look at my mods. I'm pretty sure I have more money in drivetrain/chassis/suspension mods v. let's make more POWAH mods. Not to mention, I'm on my third cycle of "all the hoses and rubber bits". Most of everything has been reinforced over the years.

Performance Gearing 3.91 LSD 3 clutch, 30/50 ramps, R&P polished; ClutchMasters FX350 clutch and LTW single mass FW @157,000 miles, RPi Oil Cooler/Scoops; DINAN High Flow Air Mass Meter/Intake, DINAN TBs, DINAN pulley, DINAN strut, DINAN Monoballs, FastAttack Tune, w/Kung Fu grip!, Einhorn Industries Race Jedders, track pipe, and x-pipe; DINAN Section 3, DINAN LTW 19x9 ET18, 19x10 ET25, Michelin PS4S 275/35/19 and 305/30/19, Macht Schnell 15mm spacers (front); FERODO FRP3000H race pads; StopTech BBK 6/4 380mm/35mm x 380mm/32mm w/SS lines; RDSport F/R sways; MCS 2WNR motorsport coilover, GC camber plates, Eibach 2.5" Race Spring, 2.5" Hyperco Helper Spring, 2.5" Torrington Bearing Kit; -2.0/-2.5 F/R camber; z3 1.9L SSK, with f10 shifter; SprintBooster v3; Euro MDM and DSC off. Fluids: Motul 7100 4T 10w60, Redline ShockProof Lightweight 75w140, Castrol SRF, Unicorn Jizz, and Wolfpack Blood
 
#31 ·
It is on the list for winter upgrades. I like to do things one at a time so I can feel the difference of each step. It makes the upgrades more fun and spreads the cost out so I can still make my house payments. I have every detail of your mods committed to memory. I could just jump to the end but what fun would there be in that. With this car I don't have to worry about power I just have to keep it running.
 
#32 ·
My 2 cents, my liners looked like that when they were not properly secured to the front bottom shield. Once I replaced and properly secured everything they haven't rubbed anymore, trackdays included. Braking pulls the tire towards the rear of the car (away from the liner), not the other way.

As for cooling the first thing to do is remove the back rotor shield on the fronts. You'd be amazed how removing the shield helps. No point in adding cooling air with that shield in place. I left the rears alone as it involves some cutting as the handbrake hardware attaches to the shield. But if you don't care about them by all means trim the rears. Note those shields do help during winter and also to keep thermal shock if rotors hot and hit a puddle, etc.

What's the thickness on your rear rotors? If the rotors are worn then they will heat up more likely causing extra pad wear. I haven't seen extra rear wear on mine.
 
#34 ·
As for cooling the first thing to do is remove the back rotor shield on the fronts. You'd be amazed how removing the shield helps. No point in adding cooling air with that shield in place. I left the rears alone as it involves some cutting as the handbrake hardware attaches to the shield. But if you don't care about them by all means trim the rears. Note those shields do help during winter and also to keep thermal shock if rotors hot and hit a puddle, etc.
I forgot to add, I removed the front and back rotor shields, when I moved to a BBK. Winter? What is this "winter" you speak of? :p

And I agree, it's best/more fun to make the mods in stages. I did the same thing, as my car progressed.

I've done so many little things over the years, that I can't remember what I did to which car.
 
#33 ·
I secured the inner fender as well as opening the hole for air flow. I guess at 140+mph the air would push on the inner fender quite a bit. I will check on the rotor thickness when I put the pads in. As for the shields they will stay in place for now. Maybe when I change the rotors/ upgrade the brakes I can pull them? For now the car see plenty of regular driving and in The PNW there is plenty of water.
 
#35 ·
Perhaps I made their purpose sound more important than it really is. If rain is your concern then I insist you take the front shields out. Not hard to remove either, only requires removing the caliper and then the rotor. Regular driving doesn't get the rotors anywhere near trackday-hot levels. I've done so in previous cars and daily-driven them through rain,etc. But then again I lived in a warmer place. Never had an issue. Now here in IL no way I'm leaving those off in winter due to all the snow + salt we use here. From spring to fall I don't have any concerns in having them off.
 
#36 ·
Any of you guys engage the ABS on purpose at the track? As in at end of the straights you just slam the pedal and let ABS work? I found stock pads will transfer material to the rotor when doing so. Trashing rotors in the process.

DTC60 also seemed to cause some transfer but it's aggressive enough to self-clean if braking reasonably.

I ask as I don't think one should engage ABS in this situation. Had an instructor suggest this approach, never again...
 
#37 ·
It kicks in when I use it at 140 MPH to slow down to like 50 MPH. I could see the holes in the roter filled with black thick dust but didnt think much of it...Is it bad? And is there an easy way to turn it off? Is it Only coded through INPA?

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#41 ·
I have some DTC 60 pads to toss in for the next track day. We'll see how they hold up especially in the rear. I guess if I'm going to smoke a set of pads it may as well be the cheaper ones. I have no trouble paying for Carbotech's although for the price I would probably buy Pagid. It is a set process and I think with the DTC 60 heat range I'll be good for the braking part. To answer flacoramos I have never heard of and would not recommend engaging the ABS unless you are out of control.

When I first started at Proformance they had us leave the nanny bits on and instructed us that when the light is flashing(DSC) or the ABS is engaged you are over driving the car. Smooth is fast, everyone agrees that it is the fastest way around the track. To that end brake hard but progressively. I can and do brake harder and later than most other drivers on the track. I have to be careful because when they do brake most cars on the track are lighter and can out brake me.

Another good goal is to save the car. It's easy to overdrive the car: tires, brakes and engine. Any race driver will know that he has to make it to the end before he will ever win. The last time I was Pacific my goal was to be smooth. With my instructors guidance I feel I met that goal. I went out at the start thinking I've been here so I know the track. I've done many laps in my M5 so I should be ready to rip. I was wrong! I brought the HP down, followed instruction and had a great day. When you get the braking, turn in and exit right you can feel it, smooth. You are not fighting the car it just goes where you want it. When you blow it at least for me it's not fun. The car is desperate and fighting you at every turn. By the end of the day I was hanging with an E92 M3 that should have been smoking me.

And last but not least, enjoy making improvements to your ride. If you go to the track in any car you will find the weakness in the platform. Enjoy fixing those problems and then getting out there and really doing what these cars are meant to do. We don't have an autobahn and most of us want to stay out of jail so take it to the track.
 
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