E60 M5 track thread

84417 Views 952 Replies 42 Participants Last post by flacoramos, 1 d ago

Alan Arnesen

Discussion Starter · Aug 19, 2019

I have had my beast at the track a few times now. Starting to mess with the setup which is half the fun. I was wondering about having a thread for people that track their cars? I know from my research that there are a few that take there beasts to the track. It is really what these cars are meant to do.

I put in some EBC yellow stuff pads and so far they have been good. No fade at the track and just a bit of squeaking just before the car stops on the street. I would rate them as comparable to Hawk HP+. The cool carbon S/T pads were better on the street. The hard part is finding the same brand and style for the front and rear. After these are gone I may opt for a dedicated track pad and swap them out on the days I go.

The car is really showing the need for camber. The outside of the fronts are gone, I run the tires at 50psi hot. I just discovered that if you pull the pin on the strut tower there is more camber to be had. It kind of pisses me off that I didn't figure it out sooner. I may buy some Kmac camber plates or some lower strut are bushings that are adjustable. Hopefully someone will pop in with some feedback? I am concerned about moving one point on the lower end VS. the whole upper end. -2.5 deg seems to be the limit for a combo car.

Trying to get the fast attack tune in right now and I have an occasional problem with the engine going into limp mode at the end of the straight. For tires I and running conti extreme sport contacts, no complaints for a performance street tire. When they are gone I might look at some Toyo track tires, I see them on a lot of cars.

Well there it is for a start. We'll see who is out there? Some track feedback would be cool too. I'm heading to Pacific on Friday for the first time in this car and PIR on the 5th for the first time on that track.

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Fiftytwoeighty

· #2 · Aug 19, 2019 (Edited)

I’ve tracked my e60 a bunch.

The easy stuff:

SS lines, better brake fluids, and pads are your friends at the track — as you know. Brakes are a weak point with our heavy e60s.

Camber plates will help with understeer. And Why are you at a hot 50#s? 30# to 35# hot is the sweet spot for this chassis.

Try to remove some weight at the corners, with light wheels and light brakes. Ditch heavy 20” wheels for lightweight 18” or 19” wheels. A good BBK should weigh less than the stock configuration.

If you want to go “all in” with the e60, look at my signature! Kidding aside look at some Coilovers and upgraded/custom diff with more aggressive ramp angles over the ///M diff. I just went overboard and replaced my old Coilovers with a full Motorsports setup from MCS.

At the track you will find more time in the corners, with better brakes/suspension/diff. As it is, we have plenty of power. The diff helps put the power down and the suspension helps keep the tires on the tarmac.

My latest suspension upgrade:

www.m5board.com

Time to upgrade my current coilovers with a full...

Time to upgrade my current coilovers with a full motorsport/competition MCS 2 way system. At about 75,xxx miles I installed CKS Coilovers w/swift springs. A bunch of us gave these a try back in 2012/2013. I don’t know how many are still on them today. My original thread can be found here...

www.m5board.com

www.m5board.com

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Alan Arnesen

Discussion Starter · #3 · Aug 19, 2019

I run 50# trying to keep off the sidewall. I started lower on my E38 and then after a few events went up to 50, it seemed to help with such a heavy car. If I get off the sidewall with camber I may start to lower the pressure. When I come off the track I can see where the tire is running. Maybe I am just leaning on the car to hard in the corners for my setup.

Coilovers are on the list. It would be a massive change and I would like to get settled in the car first.

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flacoramos

· #4 · Aug 19, 2019

If memory is right I also ended with higher than stock pressures last year around 45-ish hot. Problem using stock suspension is the front shoulders take a beating. I'd be afraid AF of a front tire failure running 30-35 hot. With stock suspension the shoulders started to peel when I used BFG R1s too. Can't run lower air until geometry is fixed.

I was boiling fluid using ATE typ 200 but zero issues with Castrol SRF. Great stuff. As for pads I have hawk dtc60s which are available for all corners. Not a street-friendly pad but it's not meant to be. Pretty common to see people swapping pads at chicago autobahn btw. At blackhawk not so much.

A nice upgrade is swaybars. I wrote about them on a separate thread but basically the e64 (or was it e63?) front sway is comparable to a RDS front. For the rear the aftermarket options are stiffer than anything stock, but the stock e63/4 work as well.

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HM506

· #5 · Aug 19, 2019

9

I just tracked it over the weekend....

Bilstein shocks, stock springs, suspension (sways, bushings, etc..), Active Autowerke Catback exhaust, RMS catless Headers, FastAttack Jim's 93 Octane Tune, RPI scoops, Sprint Booster, everything else is stock (Brakes, rotors, BF Goodrich wheels (need camber), it ran beautifully felt heavy a little but I think it's because of the tires not helping and need to update my sway bars...other than that it's a hella fun track ride!

Btw...I had temporary track wrap.which did not stick well to my ceramic coated car...but it did sort of help, just not as photogenic

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

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Fiftytwoeighty

· #6 · Aug 19, 2019 (Edited)

The stock geometry is not doing any favors at the track -- it's been 8 years since I ran stock geometry at the track. I think I ran a weekend and realized I needed to make a change.

I would also add, every bit of rubber bushing on your suspension will get chewed up from the braking zones. I eventually went to monoballs, which helped.

My tires @32# with -2.1 upfront, with stiffer sways and a coils. Nearly perfect wear at Buttonwillow.

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Alan Arnesen

Discussion Starter · #7 · Aug 20, 2019

Wow what a difference! I guess that settles it, the first thing that should be done is suspension. Camber, sway bars and coilovers. I haven't shredded my tires that bad but I guess it's coming. At least I will have a little more for this Friday.
As for the tune Jim sent me a file to write because the DME would not read. I was able to write and now I'm waiting for my tune. I have been getting cat codes IE: emissions. The tune should get rid of that at least. I'm hoping the vanos mods will get rid of the occasional limp mode at the track.
I'm heading to Pacific Raceways in Kent Wa. for a BMW event. They do HPDE with instructors on the track and CCC in the parking lot. I have not been on this track with my M5 and they did some resurfacing on the back side. I will be interested in how the M5 does as compared to my 740. The long semi-straight should be exciting. I could hit 130 in my 740 and I think I will get past 150 in the M5.

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HM506

· #8 · Aug 20, 2019

Question guys...can I put a camber kit on bilstein (or stock) shock absorbers and stock springs (or if I get H&R/Eiback/Dinan)? Instead of getting coilovers?

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Fiftytwoeighty

· #9 · Aug 20, 2019 (Edited)

HM506 said:
Question guys...can I put a camber kit on bilstein (or stock) shock absorbers and stock springs (or if I get H&R/Eiback/Dinan)? Instead of getting coilovers?

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

Non adjustable, but a good stock+ mod:

Dinan D160-0600 Dinan Camber-Caster Plates - 2006-2010 BMW M5/M6

The BMW M5 and M6 come stock with adjustable camber. Dinan's Camber/Caster Plates shift the range of the stock adjuster by -0.7 degrees and 1 degree of caster providing for a more aggressive negative camber setting that dramatically improves grip in the turns for reduced understeer and...

www.dinancars.com

My mentality, which is warped/wrong, if my shock is coming off, then I’m replacing everything.

The previous owner of my car — 8 years ago, installed the Dinan stage II suspension. Great set up for street car...I went to replace it with a CKS coil system I ran for 60,000+. I rolled the dice with CKS v. KV3 and was pleasantly surprised. The CKS was an improvement over Dinan, for a Street car that spends time at the track.

Now, I’m on my third suspension, and decided to go (almost) whole-hog-racecar, with an MCS motorsport suspension, that is a race suspension, you can drive on the street.

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Craze

· #10 · Aug 20, 2019

You cant grind out the holes in strut tower where the plate bolts in to get camber on front

Alan Arnesen

Discussion Starter · #11 · Aug 21, 2019

I put KMAC on my E38 with EDC, I can get just above -2 deg of camber. They are not as adjustable loaded as claimed but they do the job. Believe it or not but my e38 is only 400# heavier than my E60. I have been spending my way up for a couple of years and the car is great fun to drive on the track. Most people are surprised how fast it is for a living room.

I just took my E60 out for a test drive. Whatever Jim had me load into the DME it is awesome. The midrange power is way up. I squeezed that little bit of extra camber out of the stock set up and it seems a little sharper on the turn in. I changed the diff oil and I'm going to check the tow on the front and rear tomorrow. After that I ripped the interior out of my 69 390 AMX for a full resto.

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Fiftytwoeighty

· #12 · Aug 21, 2019

2

Alan Arnesen said:
I put KMAC on my E38 with EDC, I can get just above -2 deg of camber. They are not as adjustable loaded as claimed but they do the job. Believe it or not but my e38 is only 400# heavier than my E60. I have been spending my way up for a couple of years and the car is great fun to drive on the track. Most people are surprised how fast it is for a living room.

I just took my E60 out for a test drive. Whatever Jim had me load into the DME it is awesome. The midrange power is way up. I squeezed that little bit of extra camber out of the stock set up and it seems a little sharper on the turn in. I changed the diff oil and I'm going to check the tow on the front and rear tomorrow. After that I ripped the interior out of my 69 390 AMX for a full resto.

From memory, the e38 is smaller than the f10.

Cornering pretty flat, with my old suspension at CalSpeedway.

Land vehicle Vehicle Car Luxury vehicle Bmw

Land vehicle Vehicle Car Luxury vehicle Automotive design

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CSBM5

· #13 · Aug 22, 2019

flacoramos said:
A nice upgrade is swaybars. I wrote about them on a separate thread but basically the e64 (or was it e63?) front sway is comparable to a RDS front. For the rear the aftermarket options are stiffer than anything stock, but the stock e63/4 work as well.

This site is almost worthless now trying to access the huge technical information from zillions of prior posts. It's really sad they have destroyed a formerly almost limitless store of knowledge. I tried to search for posts I did on the E60 sway bars using factory parts, but even trying the google "site" thing didn't work any longer (and of course advanced search is long gone from this site). I had to go to my local car club's private forum to find what I posted.

You can use the front sway bar from the M6 competition package (29mm) plus add the Dinan roll control part to it. For the rear use the E64 M6 (convertible) 20mm bar. That was an attempt to get around the failing, snapping, RD sport bar issues. If I could search the board, I think that the post would show all the part numbers, etc.

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flacoramos

· #14 · Aug 22, 2019

Yeah for fronts the e63 comp is the same as the e64 which luckily can be found cheap on yards, got mine from car-part.com

Google seems to work:

www.m5board.com

swaybar advise needed

Read a lot of threads and other than deciding I don’t want RD swaybars, couldn't figure out what the consensus seems to be. Here are my requirements and typical scenarios: Car is a daily driver. Will see track days next year. Will likely keep stock springs/shocks. I’d like the car to be...

www.m5board.com

www.m5board.com

flacoramos

· #15 · Aug 22, 2019

CSBM5 said:
You can use the front sway bar from the M6 competition package (29mm) plus add the Dinan roll control part to it. For the rear use the E64 M6 (convertible) 20mm bar. That was an attempt to get around the failing, snapping, RD sport bar issues. If I could search the board, I think that the post would show all the part numbers, etc.

Your suggested setup (e64 + FRC front and e64 rear) will further shift traction to the rear compared to stock (ie even more understeer). Not what I'd want at the track.

Alan Arnesen

Discussion Starter · #16 · Aug 22, 2019

So I have and interesting thought/question? So I have been doing some research and you can get coilovers with camber adjustment from $800- 6000. The KMAC camber plates are almost $600. It would seem if you are willing to abandon your EDC coilovers would be the better way to go. That being said what exactly are you trying to address on the car?

The additional camber would be trying to address the shift in weight in a corner causing the tire to roll on its side. The stiffer coilover would reduce the weight shift and allow the camber to pick up the rest.

Here is the question, bigger sway bars? The sway bar transmits the force from one wheel to the other wheel forcing it down onto the road. Or it resists the compression on the inside wheel from the unloading of the outside wheel? In any case it would seem that in a track application a bigger sway bar would make little difference with the forces involved. Certainly on the street it would have a noticeable effect. So again I think the best money, effort and effect on performance would be coilovers.

Applying this to the brake question the biggest improvement would be better pads. Sure bigger calipers and rotors would add to the performance but by how much? I have found that better pads can add huge increases in performance.

I think for my dollars I will unfortunately abandon the EDC and put in coilovers. It seems that so far this car if it stays in the family will be serving track duty.

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Fiftytwoeighty

· #17 · Aug 22, 2019

Alan Arnesen said:
So again I think the best money, effort and effect on performance would be coilovers.

Applying this to the brake question the biggest improvement would be better pads. Sure bigger calipers and rotors would add to the performance but by how much? I have found that better pads can add huge increases in performance.

I think for my dollars I will unfortunately abandon the EDC and put in coilovers. It seems that so far this car if it stays in the family will be serving track duty.

I came to the same conclusion with running coils and abandoning the EDC. You can easily code out the EDC code afterwards.

Tire selection/adhesion will always be the limiting factor for improved braking "performance".

The biggest reason I went to a BBK: reduction of the unsprung mass. Between my lightweight Dinan wheels and my BBK, I nearly dropped 20#s per corner v. OEM.

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CSBM5

· #18 · Aug 22, 2019

flacoramos said:
Your suggested setup (e64 + FRC front and e64 rear) will further shift traction to the rear compared to stock (ie even more understeer). Not what I'd want at the track.

It all depends on how much the Dinan part decreases the moment arm length of the front bar. Switching to 29/20 from 26.5/18 shifts the roll stiffness more to the rear (shifts balance toward more oversteer) since the front bar increases by 43.4% in stiffness while the rear goes up 52.4%.

flacoramos

· #19 · Aug 22, 2019 (Edited)

CSBM5 said:
It all depends on how much the Dinan part decreases the moment arm length of the front bar. Switching to 29/20 from 26.5/18 shifts the roll stiffness more to the rear (shifts balance toward more oversteer) since the front bar increases by 43.4% in stiffness while the rear goes up 52.4%.

Not quite. As I also stated on my thread above the 29/20 setup shifts stiffness towards rear by an extra 9%. Now I've been running 29/20s and I can tell you that 9% is nowhere enough to get rid of understeer using stock suspension and tire sizes. I once ran 275s on all 4 corners with 29/20 and only then was understeer gone.

Looking at aftermarket options you'll see that everything biases the rear way more than 9%.

If using non-stock spring rates then ignore all of the above.

Alan Arnesen

Discussion Starter · #20 · Aug 23, 2019

So I have Breyen Spartan 19" wheels, not sure if they are heavy or light? They have the factory sizes, 285/35 and 255/40. I just tried swapping them and of course the tire rubs on the front. I think the 275/35's will fit both wheel sizes. I also think you have some room to push the rim out up front with spacers.

Heading to Pacific tomorrow with the fast attack tune and some extra camber. They have resurfaced the lower section so I'm pumped to check it out.

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