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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Look at the new 550i - It weighs about 200 Lbs less than the E39 M5, has almost the same torque, and only has 34 HP less!

My guess is that they will be very close in performance.

No, I am not selling my 2000 M5.
 

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Muditha said:
Look at the new 550i - It weighs about 200 Lbs less than the E39 M5, has almost the same torque, and only has 34 HP less!

My guess is that they will be very close in performance.

No, I am not selling my 2000 M5.
Close...but no cigar for the E60 550i. :nono:

The E39 M5 will still reign! :M5launch:

There is more to it than just the engine numbers I think, the whole engine (+ suspension) 'calibration' is different, so while they will be somewhat close in performance, the Beast will clearly immerge on top.

Not to encourage street races, but anyone having a duel with a 550i (or 650i) should report (the outcome) back to homebase... :cheers:
 

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Try deploying all that torque via the open diff + not as sporting tires + clutch delay valve limited clutch control and you'll see the M5 rocketing out of turns.... The M is still more focused- the 550 is a terrific sedan- but not a M car.
 

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When will people start to realize hp, torque, and weight are not the only factors to guage a cars performance by?

Look at tests over the years on the 3 series. Most recent one I Recall was maybe 1 year back in car and driver. 330i with performance package was against a few other cars, including the G35C. Weight was very close, but the G35C had an extra 50 rated HP and i forget how much more rate torque, but the 330i ended up even with the G35C, even being drastically now on the power #'s of the engine.
 

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On a pure "numbers to numbers" comparo as per BMW specs at least, the 550i is considerably less quick (60 sprint in 5.4 man/SMG, 5.6 auto), nevermind the difference as stated previously of the lockup out of the corners, the added suspension characteristics and the temperment of the tuning/drivetrain. I'm sure it's a great sedan to have and loads of fun, but definately not an M.

:cheers:

Sean
 

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Does pure ugliness count ???hiha

I am still not a fan of the E60, M or not. The weirdest thing is that looking back at all the generations from the 2002ti I can say I like them all except this one (e60). I am sure I will drive it some day and say wow and all the gadgets will remind me of the 745 I recently test drove but on a day to day basis I really like my car to have a good look whether it is classic like a 2002ti or a rugged, slepper beast look like the E39. I really can't pull myself to call a E60 a beast. Yes it might have a beast engine but the look is something a bit to much ahead of its time. In other words the look should count for a lot as well.
E60 just a bit too engineered for my taste for now. Give me about 10 more years and it would look fresh.

I hope for the next generation 5's will take a step back like what Porsche did with thier headlights and bring a monster that would definately tame the beast.

Although a all black E60 at night has grown on me though and that looks sick, especially at night.

Late :M5launch:
 

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bimmer23 said:
Does pure ugliness count ???hiha

I am still not a fan of the E60, M or not. The weirdest thing is that looking back at all the generations from the 2002ti I can say I like them all except this one (e60). I am sure I will drive it some day and say wow and all the gadgets will remind me of the 745 I recently test drove but on a day to day basis I really like my car to have a good look whether it is classic like a 2002ti or a rugged, slepper beast look like the E39. I really can't pull myself to call a E60 a beast. Yes it might have a beast engine but the look is something a bit to much ahead of its time. In other words the look should count for a lot as well.
E60 just a bit too engineered for my taste for now. Give me about 10 more years and it would look fresh.

I hope for the next generation 5's will take a step back like what Porsche did with thier headlights and bring a monster that would definately tame the beast.

Although a all black E60 at night has grown on me though and that looks sick, especially at night.

Late :M5launch:
I have to agree totally.
I test drove the E60 M5 this week whilst my E39 M5 was having some work done in the service bay.
The e60 was hard to accelerate hard and smooth, felt less powerful (IMO) - even with 507hp on and dsc off. Didn't make me feel special whilst driving. Even if I had been offered it overnight, I would still have been more enthuised to drive my own e39 M5 beast home.
 

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robord535 said:
I have to agree totally.
I test drove the E60 M5 this week whilst my E39 M5 was having some work done in the service bay.
The e60 was hard to accelerate hard and smooth, felt less powerful (IMO) - even with 507hp on and dsc off. Didn't make me feel special whilst driving. Even if I had been offered it overnight, I would still have been more enthuised to drive my own e39 M5 beast home.
Wow, I would never have expected this. I thought for sure the drive would be better than the E39 but I guess not. Thanks for sharing.

Late
 

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Technology means a lot in the auto industry, so broadbrush M superiority claims do not always apply. A car with an M on it is not always a slam-dunk winner for performance, especially when you're comparing one vintage to another. IMO, the E30 and E36 M cars were underpowered for their pricepoint. Older M's couldn't run 13's without mods or timer errors (lol). This was a shortcoming in all racing venues, not just drag racing. The typical BMW V8 5er with sport option will give many undermotored M's a scare.

For example, an E30 M car is not going to overshadow an E60 550i, unless you're comparing gas mileage, autocross capability, collectability, serviceability or ease of parking. Well, maybe that's quite a few pros......
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am a huge fan of the E39 M5. However, the 550i with the Sports Package is very close to the E39 M5 in performance. I am not going to quote every magazine test, but, several tests had the 545i outperforming the M5 in the slalom and skidpad. The M5 had better braking.

The point of the original post was to point out that technology is advancing at such a rapid rate that a five year old "Super Car" is merely a very good car today. That's life. When the E39 M5 came out, it was faster than some exotics, and if not, was fast enough to scare almost any car on the road.

I love my M5, and that's why I kept it after I bought a 2005 Boxster S.
 

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I would "hope" the new E60 sport with rack and pinion handles better overall, because the chassis design is about 15 years newer. ouich

E39 underpinnings are virtually carryover from the '80's design E34. Changes involved mostly sheetmetal, interior, electronics and motors. E39 M5 handling is barely on-par with a 9 year old 540i sport with staggered wheel option. The M-spec larger swaybars (2mm F/1.5mm R), greater "stagger" from 1/2" wider rear wheels, greater curb weight and progressive rate rear springs do not produce significant "gains" in the handling dept.
 

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As for the e60/e39 M5 comparison, I suspect sports car enthusiasts will always generally tend to prefer a tad more 'visceral' over excessive refinement and over-engineering. It will be interesting to see how much e60 M5 owners (a category in which I do not plan to count myself anytime soon) end up missing the clutch experience, for example. It is a good point that one hopes car manufacturers don't lose sight of this for our particular market segment, despite the advances in automotive technology. If so, many of us may be keeping our e39 M5's for a long long time.... :cool:

Cheers,
 

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wilsodh said:
I suspect sports car enthusiasts will always generally tend to prefer a tad more 'visceral' over excessive refinement and over-engineering. It will be interesting .... :cool:

Cheers,
It's not just driving enthusiasts....

Over-engineering is somewhat subjective, but I think most competent mechanics feel that over-engineering was rampant in the 10+ year old E38 design and this has infected all newer models incl E39. IMO, the design complexity found in the E34/36 designs was optimal. All they needed to do was deploy V8 power in more models and integrate NECESSARY electronics updates like immobilizer and odometer anti-tamper. These changes would have been minimal and the enthusiast would have been elated.

I prefer the "modular" electronic upgrade paths offered by other mfrs where you can install NAV or premium sound in an hour with a phillips screwdriver and a 1 page instruction sheet.

BMW's primary goal is to thwart the aftermarket and back yard mechanic. The value of over-engineered cars will plummet as they age. Classic car owners must be able to fix their car.

Remember DIN chassis radios?
 

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wilsodh said:
As for the e60/e39 M5 comparison, I suspect sports car enthusiasts will always generally tend to prefer a tad more 'visceral' over excessive refinement and over-engineering.
You want visceral, try my 1980 E12 M535i. No anti-lock brakes, no DSC, no airbags, no launch control, no active steering, no sport button, no drive by wire, and thank god no I-Drive. There's this long rod connected to the back of the pedal assembly on the other side of the firewall. You push the gas and this rod opens the throttle body and forward movement ensues. :byee55amg

Of course it doesn't have 400 horsepower and as others have said, would get humiliated by many newer BMW's, especially the V8 varieties. But it was the first M-car so there! :hihihi:
 

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flipwils11 said:
You want visceral, try my 1980 E12 M535i. No anti-lock brakes, no DSC, no airbags, no launch control, no active steering, no sport button, no drive by wire, and thank god no I-Drive. There's this long rod connected to the back of the pedal assembly on the other side of the firewall. You push the gas and this rod opens the throttle body and forward movement ensues. :byee55amg
That doesn't sound visceral... it sounds pre-historic! ;) I also remember solid-lifter cams, lopy idles, lousy low-end throttle reponse, and having to regularly adjust my valve lash... well at least that was 60's-era US sports car technology...
Admittedly, I'm a bit spoiled by newer technology! :3:

Cheers,
Dave
 

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robord535 said:
I have to agree totally.
I test drove the E60 M5 this week .
The e60 was hard to accelerate hard and smooth, felt less powerful (IMO) - even with 507hp on and dsc off. Didn't make me feel special whilst driving. Even if I had been offered it overnight, I would still have been more enthuised to drive my own e39 M5 beast home.
Pick myself up off the ground, Coughing "BULL$hit!"

I don't know what the hell you were driving, but it wasn't the same same FIRE Breathing 507 HP monster I drove at Darlington park.

It was the Beasts Match at 400 HP. One Push of the M button and I forgot all about my E39.

The E60 in straight line chews up and spits out ALL in its way.

I ran down an M3 fitted with Track pads, Pilotted by a Pro race driver, so he had a huge gap on me coming onto the straight and I could have easily shot past him at the end of the Short straight.

You want Power, Push the dam pedal, there is loads of EFFORTLESS Power in the E60.

Yoda has been Modded to the hilt, With a clutch I could drop at any RPM, and my Money is still on the E60 M5 after driving it.

Its still as Ugly as a hat full of busted ones, but No one can deny its Performance and acceleration. It is the Business.

It does it all without fuss.

It will leave even highly Moded E39's in the dust.

No if's, butt's or maybes. The E60 is a MUCH Faster car.

I loved the active seats. Full support through the twisties.

The only Fault with this car is its God awful looks. But after driving it, I never looked at it the same again.

I found it hard to accept all that performance came from all that ugly. Anything that performs that well, can't be all ugly. Its like a fitness instructopr with a bad head, to feel all that performance, you may have to close your eyes, before you get in! :haha:

The 645 was a doughy POS that does not belong on the track. The same as the 750 YUK! The M3 was sweet to drive but felt very under powered.

I think the Best is yet to come. The Real weapon will be the E90 V-8 M3. That will have the BEST Performance/Driver feedback, and go.
MJ
 
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