Here's what Rafanelli told me about his car:
It was a calypso red with champagne interiors, as I recalled.
It had a "Roche" engine.
It had 18" inch tires and 235 in front 275 in rear.
He sold it to a friend who has in turn sold it to someone else but
the car may still be in Italy somewhere.
Apparently Roche had one of these engines also in his "7" series

Rafanelli now drives a special "1" series with a diesel motorsport
engine 350 HP with huge torque.

 

Hi jamgusa

Is there any possibility that you can get in contact with Rafanelli, and ask him what was done to the engine?

 

I know that Gabriele Rafanelli would not have a clue of any
technical modifications.
Only those in Garching at the time would know.

Sorry

Jaime

 

????
The specs of this factory-engine are known and if they are not specified in this threat then in another. I might also be able to dig them out from my files.
Anyone is always free to contact the M GmbH directly or thru their local 'stealer'.....:1::M5launch:
-
Although the referred to 'Chris Wagner-car' was NOT a factory-built-car I am convinced engine-specs are
very close if not even the same as the factory-cars:
-
quote
The information that I have on Chris Wagner's car is:

- Engine is 3.8 litres, producing 300 KW (408 HP) !!!
- 3795 cc standard block, with fine polished (all borings) crankshaft weight reduced approx. 5 kg.
- Fine-balanced MAHLE special (Helmut Wahl) pistons from forged aluminium, weight reduced
- Oil cooled cylinder head
- Connecting rod weight reduced approx. 160 g, fine-balanced
- Cam duration 284°
- Compression Ratio: 11.4:1
- Color is Daytonaviolett
- Wheels and tyres: 245/45 ZR 18 (8" and 9" x 18")
- Brakes are AP-Racing CP5555 6-piston, brake disk 334 x 34 mm
- Suspension mods include KONI Shock absorbers and Eibach & Willms springs
- Exhaust System is Special (Boysen) -confidential-
- Rear axle: 3.91 ratio, 40% limited slip differential with a (special), ALPINA cooling system
- Gear ratios are calculated from ALPINA -confidential-
- Motronic optimized for the mechanical improvements listed above, RPM-limit lifted to approx. 7850 rpm.
unquote

 

????
The specs of this factory-engine are known and if they are not specified in this threat then in another. I might also be able to dig them out from my files.
Anyone is always free to contact the M GmbH directly or thru their local 'stealer'.....:1::M5launch:
-
Although the referred to 'Chris Wagner-car' was NOT a factory-built-car I am convinced engine-specs are
very close if not even the same as the factory-cars:
-
quote
The information that I have on Chris Wagner's car is:

- Engine is 3.8 litres, producing 300 KW (408 HP) !!!
- 3795 cc standard block, with fine polished (all borings) crankshaft weight reduced approx. 5 kg.
- Fine-balanced MAHLE special (Helmut Wahl) pistons from forged aluminium, weight reduced
- Oil cooled cylinder head
- Connecting rod weight reduced approx. 160 g, fine-balanced
- Cam duration 284°
- Compression Ratio: 11.4:1
- Color is Daytonaviolett
- Wheels and tyres: 245/45 ZR 18 (8" and 9" x 18")
- Brakes are AP-Racing CP5555 6-piston, brake disk 334 x 34 mm
- Suspension mods include KONI Shock absorbers and Eibach & Willms springs
- Exhaust System is Special (Boysen) -confidential-
- Rear axle: 3.91 ratio, 40% limited slip differential with a (special), ALPINA cooling system
- Gear ratios are calculated from ALPINA -confidential-
- Motronic optimized for the mechanical improvements listed above, RPM-limit lifted to approx. 7850 rpm.
unquote

Same valve sizes? Intake port optimisation? Doesn't sound too far off our cars except for v expensive reciprocating bits and higher rev limit. Costly, but not unachievable with 15yrs of materials development.

One of the best things about the s38 is that when it was new nothing bar a 1.6 Honda could match it's specific output, and it took Porsche until the 997 3.8 carrera to match the bhp/litre in a series NA production car (GT3 does not count imho as it's a GT1 engine derivative costing £35k, and not related to the regular production flat 6's).

 

Excuse me, but the S38 couldn't get anywhere near the Honda B16 (100BHP/litre) output when it came out.

Sorry - I'm a Honda fanboy at heart :hihi:

 

Excuse me, but the S38 couldn't get anywhere near the Honda B16 (100BHP/litre) output when it came out.

Sorry - I'm a Honda fanboy at heart :hihi:

true, but that's not a 3.8.

It gets harder to achieve the 100hp/litre when the engine gets bigger.

 

Seeing how I am on the other side of the pond I am perplexed as to the "myth" that surrounds this 408 HP 5 series. If of interest I can forward photos and details of a 414 hp US California Smog Legal 4.0L motor in a 6spd stage 3 suspensioned big brake LSD M5 so all that are interested can build their own "Sleeper Hot Rod". Let me know

 

The myth is not about the specific power output, but the few cars that were delivered with this engine from Garching- this makes the cars themselves special, not just the engine.
There are several documented cases of succesful tuning up to appr. 400bhp even on this board, so no "myth" there.
The engine you are referring to is not factory original and it seems that it is a stroker engine as it has larger stroke volume (I doubt that this has been achieved by increasing the bore-of known reasons)

:cheers:
Sakke

 

Thanks for your reply, actually you are quasi correct in that the car has different cams, (Schrick), a 850 fuel pump, larger injectors, re mapped ecu and a supercharger hung off to the side. It is one of 135 cars built and the upgrades, including suspension, were performed by the DINAN Corporation in Calif. (Our US version of Alpina). Looking under the hood everything looks where it should be and I thought that if this sort of horsepower is of interest I am certain a competent enthusiast can recreate in their garage a similar result for not much money. The result is incredible fun to drive. Apologies for misreading the post.

P.S. Great Avatar, Cheers

 

135 = number of US-Spec 6sp. 540i M-Sports (another 65 autos) not an M5

540i M-Sports are sweet cars (esp. with SC's) and use a lot of M5 parts, but the power plant is entirely different.

Sweet cars - I have owned several including a Dinan S3 540i M-Sport w/big cams pumping 475bhp. It was a nightmare.

 

^ Am I understanding that you have an e34 M5 with a supercharger from Dinan.

When I had my 3.9l Dinan stroker built they were claiming 415bhp and they had SC540's and TC 535's that made similar bhp.
Didn't know they SC'd M5's .
In the end the strokers were only making around 390 bhp but are easily bumped to 420+ with a better tune(less conservative) and some 3.8 goodies.

Pics and specs please.

Thanks


*EDIT* I see that you are talkng about a 540. disregard

 

I will dyno my car when it is ready - maybe in 20 days , it is stock bore and stroke but with 291 degrees cams , oversized valves , decated , removed maf , airbox , airpump , visco and climatecompresor , lightweight flywheel and more extras I hope to hit 400hp at flywheel

 

Updates DAMNIT!!!

 

Has anyone else heard about the 408 bhp M5 specials that were produced by Motorsport?

The story goes that the factory produced 2 or 3 cars (circa 1993 model) with breathed on motors for the likes of the touring car drivers and Paul Roesche.

I spoke to someone in Motorsport a few years back who confirmed this but would not divulge the specification or provide chassis no's.

Then a friend of mine who unfortunately is no longer with us heard that one of these cars was purchased by a wealthy guy who lived on the south coast and for enjoyment drove sight seeing coaches across Europe.

I tried to track him down but this came to nought, I even contacted the service departments of the main dealers in the area to see if this car had ever received servicing/repairs by them but this showed no result. It was said at the time that he used to have the car serviced in Munich but that seems a hell of a long way to go!

It would certainly be a nice power to weight ratio, I believe it was acheived by trick cams better breathing and a boyesen exhaust.

Some local folks in the BMW club know Erik Wensburg, who was M Brand Product Manager at BMW for the E30 M3 and E34 M5, etc. He's an american and lives in New Hampshire now. He spoke to our group a year or so ago. Really friendly guy.

I can check with them and try to get his contact info and check with him. He'd know that kind of thing.

If you heard it as "rumor"... I'd guess it to be true. I'm sure Motorsport would have tweaked thier M cars for thier top drivers. I still love the fact that Nelson Piquet still has the BMW M6 that BMW gave him in 1985, and is still his favorite!

But, who can blame him? :3:

 

Any more info or updates on these cars? :noSMG:

 

What updates are you looking for ??
Use the -search-function- and you will find all there is to know.
-
About 5 cars were built dedicated to specific people active within the
"M-GmbH-family" and the basic specifications of this engine are also known.
One of these few cars is also documented by a vehicle specification list, which does provide further proof that these cars do actually exist.:typing:

 

Is the current ownership or whereabouts of any of these five cars known?

 

Not to me it is.
THAT is why THIS is the challenge NOW.
Most of the E34-M-series-cars mysteries have meanwhile bee revealed.
The identification and whereabouts of the -400/408 bhp- E345 M5s is one of the few remaining challenges.
-
One first owner is confirmed, the others are 'supposedly known' and for one
(only) of these cars there is a positive VIN-identification.
The colour is confirmed for two of them.
-
Any input from anyone out there who knows more is most welcome....:typing::M5thumbs:

 

Bump!cherrsagai

 

Did anyone ever locate the '95 car? I ran across it while checking VIN sequences, looks like it is/was a unique car.

Would someone in the UK have ordered a LHD M5? I remember a few years back Infinicar broke a '95 that I recall being LHD, silver/silvergray and with shades (and a third brakelight, I saw the parcel shelf from that car last week). Can't find a VIN on that car anymore and paul seems to be out of business/web sites down and not archived on wayback.

 

The location of the Sterlingsilver one is still not known, if that's the one you are talking about (GD64558).
It has English language version, so could have been shipped to the U.K.
But 925, shipping protection package, indicates that it also could have travelled further. LHD-cars shipped to South America have that code and South American cars with English language usually means Brazil. Then I don't know why it has a 3rd brake light, that's very uncommon. That was just mandatory in the U.S and New Zealand I think (at that time)?
Then it's also strange that someone orders Sterlingsilver when Arctic silver was already available?

 

hey Nick! you really think that this car can be here in Brazil?

 

Well, I am just speculating now :3: But you never know. There has been some qualified race car drivers from Brazil over the years. Maybe someone wanted something special.
The 3rd brake light is very strange. I assume you just don't order that for a 400hp car unless local regulations says so. Maybe it went to America ouich

But seriously, the U.K is probably the best guess so far. Didn't BMW Motorsport have some department in London at that time, or still have maybe? Or am I mistaking.
BMW Classic should be able to give the name and location of the dealer that sold this vehicle. But getting a good contact with them is difficult.

 

Blah, these "factory special" cars are like goddamn UFOs.








An intriguing subject indeed .

 

Blah, these "factory special" cars are like goddamn UFOs.

An intriguing subject indeed .

-
Hells bells, stay cool, my friend, -GD64558- is a fact and not a rumour or an UFO and the 'other' cars are confirmed by 'reliable sources'. BMW not wishing to confirm or even discuss this is a pretty normal BMW-attitude which we have to respect. There are enough living witnesses for that matter.
-
If it helps, I believe that I can find out to which 'dealer' the only -documented- 400/408 bhp car was delivered. That way we will learn to which
country is was shipped/delivered.
-
However, it is vacation time in Europe now and thus also in Muenich and Garching. So, HAVE PATIENCE !.:wroom:

 

Guys I live in Dubai now (well practically) was just thinking who i could call to track this guy down (Mehboob Hamza).

But it will be difficult, as so many people are leaving Dubai at the moment and have already done so, unless he is an Emarati???

But will definetley keep and eye out for a Burgundy E34. Saw a nice Red E34 3.8 last week near my office.

Let me see.

Cheers

 

Could we condense the information we so far have to chassis no's/colours?

It maybe that the cars are on general release with know knowledge to the owners to what they have - this would be an outside chance of checking against cars as they come up for sale.

It does seem quite incredible that some 14 years after production not one has been authenticated and how exciting would it be to find one we definately need an inside source who could help us further..

Richard

 

Could we condense the information we so far have to chassis no's/colours?

The rumour says 3-4 were built with 408bhp from the factory.

1. SL Sterlingsilber met. / VIN = WBSHC91050GD64558 / confirmed as 400 hp / built 1994-12-05 with English language version and standard 6 speed transmission and EDC III chassis / location unknown

2. SL Burgundrot met. / VIN is unknown / there is no Burgundrot 3.8 among those whose colour is known to the register. 4 VINs with Individual order paint are missing the actual paint code and could therefore be Burgundrot, and they are:

WBSHC910X0GD63907 - built 1993-07-01 - that car is special paint, Individual interior, it has other options from Individual also. Adding to that it has the 944 NACHTRAEGLICHER UMBAU DURCH ZS code which is also found on the confirmed 400 hp car. It was also a BMW M show car as well as a development vehicle.
This one is a true suspect to be something interesting. All data are protected.

WBSHC91010GD63908 - built 1993-07-06 - specs very similar to the GD63907 above. High numbers of extras on both vehicles (as on the 400 hp).
Suspect!

WBSHC91090GD63929 - built 1993-07-16 - just special paint, nothing else. Low number of extras. I dont know why the paint code is missing. No data protected on this one.
Very unlikely to be a 400 hp car.

WBSHC91030GD64302 - built 1994-03-17 - last one. Had Individual spec interior and some other stuff from BMW Individual. But no 944 code or development vehicle. Not likely to be a 400 hp car. Was registered in Sweden before, now disappeared. Might have been scrapped.

So, if the information regarding a Burgundrot 3.8 with 400 hp is correct, it must be either GD63907 or GD63908, as far as I understand this.

Maybe Kalle or someone else could check these 4 VINs with BMW Classic or someone else with knowledge. Then we would know if there exist a Burgundrot 3.8L.

3. ??? Possible 3rd car, no informations on colour or VIN

4. ??? Possible 4th car, no informations on colour or VIN

Then there was the daytonaviolett 1993 or 1994 model, which had the very same engine, although not from the factory. I believe one owner was a member here (Chris), but now gone? I dont know if the VIN was known (would be interesting for the international register even if not a 400 hp factory car).

So that's just about what is known I think, unless someone is sitting on some secrets here (send me a PM if you do).

 

Wow interesting find. Nice work matey

 

This is a very intriguing thread.

HD91- Great information and insight into the matter, thanks. It should be interesting to see if anyone comes forward with new information regarding the Burgundrot metallic, or other possible 400hp cars.

 

Why were these ,, rumored cars ,, buildt ????

was that an idea that BMW invented by them self ??

 

The engine was most likely developed for a possible use in the German -DTM-race-series- against the in those days very competitive AUDI V8-cars (S8) but the project was apparantly called off. The very few engines/cars actually built were assumingly NOT offered for normal sale but they were -given- to a handful of people as a dedication and acknowledgement. These -lucky- person were -said to be- BMW ///M-insiders and also heavily involved with the history and development of the E34 M5. In those days there was obviously still time and room for some freedom, fantasy
and flexibility which can also be seen on some of the cars from - BMW Individual - actually built for the public sale and without a customer order.
These cars - both E34 M5 saloons and E34 M5tourings, all MY95, standard power package but otherwise -special in various degrees -
are the ones to look out for.