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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Has anyone else heard about the 408 bhp M5 specials that were produced by Motorsport?

The story goes that the factory produced 2 or 3 cars (circa 1993 model) with breathed on motors for the likes of the touring car drivers and Paul Roesche.

I spoke to someone in Motorsport a few years back who confirmed this but would not divulge the specification or provide chassis no's.

Then a friend of mine who unfortunately is no longer with us heard that one of these cars was purchased by a wealthy guy who lived on the south coast and for enjoyment drove sight seeing coaches across Europe.

I tried to track him down but this came to nought, I even contacted the service departments of the main dealers in the area to see if this car had ever received servicing/repairs by them but this showed no result. It was said at the time that he used to have the car serviced in Munich but that seems a hell of a long way to go!

It would certainly be a nice power to weight ratio, I believe it was acheived by trick cams better breathing and a boyesen exhaust.
 

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Has anyone else heard about the 408 bhp M5 specials that were produced by Motorsport?

The story goes that the factory produced 2 or 3 cars (circa 1993 model) with breathed on motors for the likes of the touring car drivers and Paul Roesche.

I spoke to someone in Motorsport a few years back who confirmed this but would not divulge the specification or provide chassis no's.

Then a friend of mine who unfortunately is no longer with us heard that one of these cars was purchased by a wealthy guy who lived on the south coast and for enjoyment drove sight seeing coaches across Europe.

I tried to track him down but this came to nought, I even contacted the service departments of the main dealers in the area to see if this car had ever received servicing/repairs by them but this showed no result. It was said at the time that he used to have the car serviced in Munich but that seems a hell of a long way to go!

It would certainly be a nice power to weight ratio, I believe it was acheived by trick cams better breathing and a boyesen exhaust.
I heard that myth too. But what I heard was they made 368 bhp and were properly hand built motors with larger cams etc.

Special order only as far as i know. I was offered one a few years ago, but the price they guy wanted was equal to a S62 at the time.
 

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Yes, I am aware of these cars ( surprised ? ;)
They are one of the ( now) only few still uncovered secrets of the E34 M5-production. There is a M5touring-owner 'out there' who was involved in -motor-racing - ( Italy ) in those days who can confirm that these cars do in fact exist and who they were (supposedly) made for ( or given to ). The engine - 400 ECE / 408 DIN - bhp was developed by ///M in co-operation with ALPINA to be used in the German DTM-racing series against the -in those days- strong going AUDI V8s. As we know now ///M-motorsport did not go through with this project. A few engines were however build. One final evidence that all this is in fact NOT a myth or rumours was revealed when the build specifications of one E34 M5 were found
documenting that this car in fact had a factory-power-increased engine with
400 ECE/408 DIN bhp. VIN is a known but kept secret:hihi:
(at least until the guys from the M5-Limo-register will see this thread:hihi::hihi:;)
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These cars are one of the last pending -E34 M5-research-projects- I am working on and if anybody has an input to give and share this would of course be most welcome.:M5thumbs:
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PS: I believe you can find some more on this by using the -search- function.
 

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I heard that myth too. But what I heard was they made 368 bhp and were properly hand built motors with larger cams etc.

Special order only as far as i know. I was offered one a few years ago, but the price they guy wanted was equal to a S62 at the time.
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Hi there 'down under';)
368 bhp ( instead of 347 DIN bhp standard power - 255 kw) can be achieved by limited measures of motor tuning whereas - 408 bhp DIN - requires ever so much more effort and a HUGE bank-account...........:cheers::M5launch:
408 bhp from a -straight six- is poor motorsport :applause::applause:
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PS: while on the subject > can you still fix me a ticket for sat/sunday ?
if I leave tomorrow morning I just might be able to make it......:15::15:
 

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408 bhp DIN - requires ever so much more effort
You're not kidding. If capacity is retained at 3.8 litres, that's requiring 107bhp/litre output from a very old design of n/a engine.

If they increased the capacity to 3.9 as Dinan did with their stroker, then it drops to 104bhp/l, but this is an increase of stroke not bore, as the bore is already tight to margins on this engine. Increasing the stroke is not the ideal method of power increase on a hi-revving racing engine. I wonder if they went even higher on bore and stroke, lightened conrods and pistons, even more compression. Liners? Add mad cams and the engine in a 4.0 or 4.1 litre configuration could put out 408bhp and last 100k+ but I'd personally be wincing every time I started it cold or hit the limiter!!

Obviously and engine like that would need a higher performance oil perhaps. Has anyone tried the TWS 10w60 in these cars? lolz... :hihi:



Would love to hear a video of one on full chat or a driveby. If you do visit these cars one day, please take a camcorder!!

Regards
Ivan
 

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They probably had some parts left over from the M1 Procars - didn't they have 700bhp or something?
 

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Yes, up to 850Bhp, but they were they were turbocharged. Lower compression and oodles of boost. Not so good for longevity!

Regards

Ivan
 

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You're not kidding. If capacity is retained at 3.8 litres, that's requiring 107bhp/litre output from a very old design of n/a engine.
Regards
Ivan
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If the ///M-division has a quality capacity in anything then it is in building -engines - (although BMW-Sauber will still not have a podium-chance on Sunday's F1-race as they say :confused: this however might not be the engines fault ?:confused:)
The S38B38-408 DIN bhp-engine was build to DTM-race-series specifications,
i.e. it had to stay within standard-production-engine limits and thus it was NOT allowed to increase the -bore-:nono:
As the engine was -not- used for racing it was again modified for use in a standard car in the same way as the standard-S38B38-engine, i.e. made to last and to stand up for a normal car use. :applause:
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Does anyone know of a -burgund- coloured E34 M5 ??:M5launch:
 

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Did nobody else use the -search- function ?
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5668&highlight=408+bhp+E34
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could this be one of the cars we are looking for ???:dunno:
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the -Chris Wagner- car was discussed in this forum some years ago -
that car was a -replica- and not one of the -original- cars, the car had a
standard-engine but was then fitted with an engine build after the -408 bhp-
engine specifications - that guy had a -very- close relationship to the ///M-GmbH - rumours have it that this car was later build back to -standard- again
and if it is not wrecked it might still be out there -
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still, that car in -Dubai- sounds -interesting indeed- (as money is no issue in that region, anything is possible, as ///M-GmbH of course still knows how to build such an engine, so perhaps, as long as you pay for it you might get one)
= or could this be one of the original cars ?????? that would be a -scoop- indeed:cheers:
 

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Kalle,

I remember Chris and his car. Chris did confirm somewhere in 2000 that has 408PS engine died and was rebuild to 347PS specification. He soon after sold the car, I believe the asking price was 45k DM, or 22k5 Euro. I have his original Email stored somewhere. I also know that he did not provide ab in depth technical description as the 408PS specification was confidential.

But I wouldn't worry about Christian his car. It was a well used daily driver and may have reached condition 3-4 already in 2000. Far more delictable is Thomas Heissig's ex-1995 M5-limo with a changed differential and large Movit 380mm/323mm brakes. I know that he sold that car in spring 2001 for somewhere between 20k and 25k Euro. Unfortunatelly that car has been exported to the US where it was registered in Georgia. At that time, it was a good condition 1-2 car and I hope it still is.
 

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The information that I have on Chris Wagner's car is:

- Engine is 3.8 litres, producing 300 KW (408 HP) !!!
- 3795 cc standard block, with fine polished (all borings) crankshaft weight reduced approx. 5 kg.
- Fine-balanced MAHLE special (Helmut Wahl) pistons from forged aluminium, weight reduced
- Oil cooled cylinder head
- Connecting rod weight reduced approx. 160 g, fine-balanced
- Cam duration 284°
- Compression Ratio: 11.4:1
- Color is Daytonaviolett
- Wheels and tyres: 245/45 ZR 18 (8" and 9" x 18")
- Brakes are AP-Racing CP5555 6-piston, brake disk 334 x 34 mm
- Suspension mods include KONI Shock absorbers and Eibach & Willms springs
- Exhaust System is Special (Boysen) -confidential-
- Rear axle: 3.91 ratio, 40% limited slip differential with a (special), ALPINA cooling system
- Gear ratios are calculated from ALPINA -confidential-
- Motronic optimized for the mechanical improvements listed above, RPM-limit lifted to approx. 7850 rpm.
 

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- Suspension mods include KONI Shock absorbers and Eibach & Willms springs
:hihi: Glad to see Motorsport and myself have the same vision :hihi:

This is indeed interesting, but I never knew it to be more than rumours.

I can imagine the engine in the Procars being completely different, a Turbo engine which loses its Turbo is always gonna make -less- power than the original engine it was based on.

I'd just like to know what M has done to keep the car driveable. With no bore increase and 284' cams, I doubt the low-down torque has raised.

If they still utilise the same airbox system (which I doubt) I fear it won't be a nice car to drive under 5k revs.
 

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karl - great to hear you are working on this, if anyone can find out then you are the one...
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Thanks for the flowers, mate ;)
I'll do my very best BUT as you know my time is - very - limited and things
are therefore moving slow - lately -.
So, if someone will make an effort and contact -
Mehboob Hamza Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates -to find out some more
details about his car that would be of great help.:M5launch:
 

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:hihi: Glad to see Motorsport and myself have the same vision :hihi:
This is indeed interesting, but I never knew it to be more than rumours.
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Sebring [email protected]
Please do NOT add to the confusion.:nono:
1.
The -Chris Wagner car - and the specifications of his his car are more then rumours but it was -never- an original ///M-Garching-build-factory car.
2.
The specifications of one of the -real and genuine- 408 bhp factory cars are still unknown. The build-sheet for the only known car does NOT reveal any other special specifications than the engine itself - only -.:dunno::M5launch:
 

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I beg your pardon?
 

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Yes,
I do not know how many were made but one, burgundy red,
was made for Gabriele Rafanelli, owner of Team Bigazzi, and
he sold it a few years ago.
I drove it once as at the time I was his Team manager.
I know Paul Roche had one, as he himself told me.

Jaime
 
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