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Discussion Starter #1
Finally did some runs today. Runs 6 months ago had a best of 321 hp at the wheels. With the addition of SS headers, Evo UD pullies and PC adjusted for the SS headers, best run was 353! An impressive 32 hp at the wheels. These are all SAE corrected numbers.
There is a drop in torque between 2500 and 4000. I know at least one other board member had something similar. However, top end is very strong. Peak Hp of 353 was 6600 and at 7100 I still had 347; at 7300 I had 334.
I will be sending the guys at PC the info for their input. I am very pleased with the increase, clearly the SS headers are well worth the $$$ IMHO.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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Sounds great!

I cannot wait for mine . . .

32 at the wheels sounds perfect.
 

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Sounds very comparable Jerry. I had about 28hp gain, also ended up with 353! I sent my files to wayne at powerchip, he felt for a lot more software work, we might gain 1-2hp back in that area that lost low end, not worth it in either of our opinions... Congrats! We also have similar mods, with the pullies etc.
Mike
 

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Mike, who installed your headers? Any probs getting smogged so far? :M5launch:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
mottati said:
Sounds very comparable Jerry. I had about 28hp gain, also ended up with 353! I sent my files to wayne at powerchip, he felt for a lot more software work, we might gain 1-2hp back in that area that lost low end, not worth it in either of our opinions... Congrats! We also have similar mods, with the pullies etc.
Mike
I thought you might be interested in the results! :) I was surprised at the torque drop, when you plot it out on the graph it is noticable. It is more noticeable in the taller gear pulls. I must say, I can't feel it in the car, but the graphs don't lie. I am wondering if the AF is a little off in that range, but I can say the top end if right on the money!! Did you send computer files from the dyno's computer, or just the charts (numerical and graphs) to Wayne? I would just like to flatten out the torque curve, but it is not a big deal. Hopefully with a few different runs from different people, Wayne can analyze it and perhaps change the baseline setting for the SS header ECU upgrade for everyone.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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Jerry, I sent the actual dyno data files. On my printout, there is a little leaning out right before the torque dip, so i thought it would be simple as richening it up, but Wayne feels it may be a dyno artifact. On the road, i don't feel the dip, but i do feel a strong surge at 4k where the torque curve gets real steep on the dyno plot.
Mike

gsfent said:
I thought you might be interested in the results! :) I was surprised at the torque drop, when you plot it out on the graph it is noticable. It is more noticeable in the taller gear pulls. I must say, I can't feel it in the car, but the graphs don't lie. I am wondering if the AF is a little off in that range, but I can say the top end if right on the money!! Did you send computer files from the dyno's computer, or just the charts (numerical and graphs) to Wayne? I would just like to flatten out the torque curve, but it is not a big deal. Hopefully with a few different runs from different people, Wayne can analyze it and perhaps change the baseline setting for the SS header ECU upgrade for everyone.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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Need4Spd said:
Mike, who installed your headers? Any probs getting smogged so far? :M5launch:
Need, discovery auto did my install, as for smog, we;'ll see in august! Shouldn't be an issue, you really can't see anything... are you coming to the lunch next week, you can take a look!
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #9
SC'dKellenersM5 said:
jerry..thats a great outcome. Where down in S. FL did you have the runs done at?
Done at TPS in West Palm Beach. They do a lot of drag cars and have tons of Supras with monster HP numbers. The wife/co owner has a 600 hp Supra turbo manual as her daily driver. The drag car has two monster garrett turbos and will push 1200 hp AT THE WHEELS with about 30 psi!!!
Regards,
Jerry
 

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SC'dKellenersM5 said:
**** 2jz engines!
Hey Triman,

I have another couple of numbers for you to be wary of, R-34. :M5launch:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
mottati said:
Jerry, I sent the actual dyno data files. On my printout, there is a little leaning out right before the torque dip, so i thought it would be simple as richening it up, but Wayne feels it may be a dyno artifact. On the road, i don't feel the dip, but i do feel a strong surge at 4k where the torque curve gets real steep on the dyno plot.
Mike
I will get those then. The chart/graphs both shows AF ratios, and it doesn't really look like it is leaning out, it remains constant or richens slightly. About 13.6 or so. Funny, at 4000 rpm is also where the curve gets positive again and pulls good to redline.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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gsfent said:
I was surprised at the torque drop, when you plot it out on the graph it is noticable.
Jerry,

Isn't this typical for a 4 into 1 collector header setup? Doesn't that layout typically scavenge/resonate better at a given rpm range at the expense of the other part of the curve? I think this is why Dinan did a 4-2-1 design. I'm sad to say it has been more than 20 years since I was "up" on this subject however :sad1: .

Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter #14
CSBM5 said:
Jerry,

Isn't this typical for a 4 into 1 collector header setup? Doesn't that layout typically scavenge/resonate better at a given rpm range at the expense of the other part of the curve? I think this is why Dinan did a 4-2-1 design. I'm sad to say it has been more than 20 years since I was "up" on this subject however :sad1: .

Chuck
I don't know. While I would expect a 4-2-1 to give some better midrange torque when compared to a 4-1, I wouldn't expect the torque to actually dip. From 2500-4000 there is a decrease in torque and it come back around 4k. It is not a lot, but it is a little more noticable in the higher gear pulls. So it is possible it is a function of the design, but I would think the tuning is slightly off. Since this has happened on a couple of other cars, it could be something that is not being taken into account in the programming. Wayne is looking at the various graphs from different cars to see if there is something to discern. In any event, the headers are definitely worth the $$$ to wake up the car.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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This is a great post. I have a question. From the graphs on the web that I've seen before at Turner Motorsport and Evosport, the bigger part of the torque loss occurred up to 3000 rpm, and from 3000-4000 it was very little. Is this what you guys saw too? How much loss was there versus stock from 3000 to 4000? The 3000 to 4000 range troubles me a little. On an Evosport graph I think I saw the result after Powerchip tuning to fill in that loss. Is Evosport's tuning in conjuction with Powerchip more successful at filling this gap?
 

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It sounds like my and Jerry's curves are very similar, so i'll answer, and Jerry can too... On my graph, i GAIN torque up to 3k rpm vs stock, then it drops between 3-4 (maybe 25lbs ft?) and then gains again from 4-redline. HP drops by about 10-12 at around 3600, iirc. The evosport and turner graphs really don't show any losses, just very similar to stock up to about 4k, then the header curve takes off. Since Jerry's car and mine are modded very similarly, i do wonder if something is up.

Jerry, by leaning out, i mean my afr drops to about 13.3 or so at maybe 26-2800, then steadily richens down into the 12's. Wayne, from powerchip says these engines like to be in the mid/upper 12:1 range for max power. Maybe it has something to do with the dinan cai in our case? It sounds like to only way to really be certain would be to take the car to powerchip and have them hook up their equipment to the car and get some time on the road and dyno.
mike

edit: i'll try to post my curves that wayne emailed me back, which have both stock and header runs. THey're on my laptop, which i left at my office, so next week!


HBRAMSTEDT said:
This is a great post. I have a question. From the graphs on the web that I've seen before at Turner Motorsport and Evosport, the bigger part of the torque loss occurred up to 3000 rpm, and from 3000-4000 it was very little. Is this what you guys saw too? How much loss was there versus stock from 3000 to 4000? The 3000 to 4000 range troubles me a little. On an Evosport graph I think I saw the result after Powerchip tuning to fill in that loss. Is Evosport's tuning in conjuction with Powerchip more successful at filling this gap?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
HBRAMSTEDT said:
This is a great post. I have a question. From the graphs on the web that I've seen before at Turner Motorsport and Evosport, the bigger part of the torque loss occurred up to 3000 rpm, and from 3000-4000 it was very little. Is this what you guys saw too? How much loss was there versus stock from 3000 to 4000? The 3000 to 4000 range troubles me a little. On an Evosport graph I think I saw the result after Powerchip tuning to fill in that loss. Is Evosport's tuning in conjuction with Powerchip more successful at filling this gap?
I have to dig out my old graphs for comparison. I remembered the HP, but didn't think of a TQ loss. The car feels so much better even at lower revs that I would be surprised if I lose TQ compared to stock, but if I can dig out the graphs, we will know for sure.
Best run AF shows 14.3 at 2500, holding till 2900 when it goes to 14.1and then about another .1 per 200 rpm till 3600 when it goes from 13.7 to 13.6 up to 3900, then 13.7 at 4k to 4200, then 13.6 from 4300 all the way to 5300. TQ goes from 322 at 2500 down to 313 at 3600 and 3700, then starts climbing again. So it might actually be slightly rich looking at the numbers, but I will let Wayne do the analysis when I get the actual files off of the dyno computer.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter #18
mottati said:
It sounds like my and Jerry's curves are very similar, so i'll answer, and Jerry can too... On my graph, i GAIN torque up to 3k rpm vs stock, then it drops between 3-4 (maybe 25lbs ft?) and then gains again from 4-redline. HP drops by about 10-12 at around 3600, iirc. The evosport and turner graphs really don't show any losses, just very similar to stock up to about 4k, then the header curve takes off. Since Jerry's car and mine are modded very similarly, i do wonder if something is up.

Jerry, by leaning out, i mean my afr drops to about 13.3 or so at maybe 26-2800, then steadily richens down into the 12's. Wayne, from powerchip says these engines like to be in the mid/upper 12:1 range for max power. Maybe it has something to do with the dinan cai in our case? It sounds like to only way to really be certain would be to take the car to powerchip and have them hook up their equipment to the car and get some time on the road and dyno.
mike

edit: i'll try to post my curves that wayne emailed me back, which have both stock and header runs. THey're on my laptop, which i left at my office, so next week!
INteresting. At 26-2800 I am much leaner, showing 14.3 for all those revs. My best run had 12.7 at redline and the car was pulling very strong. The last few hundred rpm were low 13's/high 12's. From 6200-6700 it was 13.1, 6800 13, 6900 and 7000 was 12.9. I think it is a touch rich (at least compared to the ECU before the headers), but that certainly will protect the motor. Not looking for the last 1-2 horsepower here. In higher gears, I had no problem pulling 200 mph( actually 199, machine aborts at 200) on the rollers, car did not fall off at all.
Regards,
Jerry
 

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gsfent said:
INteresting. At 26-2800 I am much leaner, showing 14.3 for all those revs. My best run had 12.7 at redline and the car was pulling very strong. The last few hundred rpm were low 13's/high 12's. From 6200-6700 it was 13.1, 6800 13, 6900 and 7000 was 12.9. I think it is a touch rich (at least compared to the ECU before the headers), but that certainly will protect the motor. Not looking for the last 1-2 horsepower here. In higher gears, I had no problem pulling 200 mph( actually 199, machine aborts at 200) on the rollers, car did not fall off at all.
Regards,
Jerry

Good improvement
 
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