BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Discovery Automotive Nightmare

26K views 145 replies 46 participants last post by  MGZ 
#1 · (Edited)
I was asked to recount my experience some time ago but was torn between telling my sad story and maintaining relationships. Since it has come to light that others are having less than favorable experiences with Discovery Automotive I could not hold my tongue any longer.

Well. Where to start...



The nightmare begins with the result that I spent well over 100k for 600 rear wheel horsepower and got 434rwhp that builds very slowly. Also, the car usually goes into failsafe mode when pushed. My stock E60 M5 has more torque and would make quick work of this D/A built E39 M5. There are other issues that make the car a very poor driver and they were all present at the time of delivery.

First, I was completely “taken financially” in a several ways. The most deceitful facet to this nightmare was that Bill told me after I received the car that he built the car to 500 rwhp when we both agreed from the start and latter confirmed that he would “get me to 600.” All during the project I was paying for what I expected to be around 600 rwhp.

From day one I ran the car with kid gloves. And from the first moment that released the clutch for the very first time I noticed that the clutch was not hooking up properly. I had to drive off from traffic lights very slowly with drivers in back of me getting annoyed (and still do). The drivetrain would buck and stutter when engaging first gear each time. Further, the clutch would make squeaky slip noises when just maneuvering normally in a parking lot – even in reverse. It would also slip easily unless I paused for a split second when shifting under a firm but not full load from the engine – and the engine has no real torque.

I called Bill and told him that the clutch was acting funny and he said that it might need breaking in and he’d call UUC and check with them. I thought it strange that he would not know the characteristics of the UUC clutch he has used on his past projects. I also told him that there was an issue with a lack of power. I told him that a stock M5 would outperform this car. He just seemed oblivious to what I was saying. Later when discussing the power issue he suggested that if I wanted more power he could put a different pulley on it – at my cost of course. I left that crazy answer alone because by now I had figured him out.

You see, before this, a few days after receiving the car I noticed that there was a lot of glistening oil collecting on the bottom engine cover. I called and emailed Bill and we agreed that it might be the crank case seal. He emailed me back saying that he “didn’t make the seals” but he’d see what he could do. I thought, “what kind of answer is that?” – “I don’t make the seals.” I took from that, that if I gave him the car back he would likely charge me and it is a big job to get there. Additionally, I was telling him that the car was very sluggish and that something was wrong. This is when he suggested that I could by a bigger power pulley – but going bigger could pose problems he said.

I live not four hours from him and when I asked when I could bring the car to him to at least do a couple of quick tests like check the boost or vacuum pressure he told me that it would be at least a month and a half and to call him in a month to see where he was. I was furious. I had just received the car from him a week or so ago and had been having all this trouble before I pulled out onto the street.

I just spent about 115-120k with this clown and he brushes me off without a shred of concern about the running of the car! By this time I was beginning to let the rpms rise while driving and the car would usually go right into failsafe mode if I brought the rpms up to around 6k or so. Bill said the ECU needed to find itself and it should work itself out. Of course it couldn’t because of the vacuum leaks that I found later.

The car was such a drag to drive that I seldom drove it. One time on the freeway I tried to pull away from a 1991 M5 with 360 hp but couldn’t. I met the driver some time later and he recounted that he was pushing his M5 at about 90 %. He couldn’t understand why I couldn’t pull away from him.


After about 1700 miles I just stored the car for some months and waited to find someone honest who could fix it. I called Dinan twice but they never called back.

After six or eight months I was told of a place that was very successful with modded BMW’s and got the car out of storage to take to Edge in Dublin, CA. I told them the story and before I was done they said they have had customers from Discovery Automotive that ended up coming to them to make the car right.

Edge first found three vacuum leaks and sealed them. One was under the plenum where there was a gasket or seal missing and when they were finally able to get in contact Bill (which would take days of repeated calls) he said that the car was running fine when it left and that Dinan didn’t put the seal in when they worked on it. Well, he was just weaseling out of having to provide any kind of help – even to fix his own work. The car never went to Dinan or anyone else. The guy at Edge said that Bill acted as if he could do no wrong.

No one else had ever worked on the car. He just decided that because he knew from someone else that I was trying to find someone to fix it. We were shocked and dumbfounded to see that he couldn’t care less about the running of the car and that he offered no help. Bill told the person at Edge that the car was running fine when Bill and I both knew full well that I was having serious issues from the first days. From the start he could not care less what state the car was in.

I found it strange that he never once tried to contact me to see what was wrong since he knew I was trying to get the car fixed. He did say the first week that I could bring the car to him but almost two months from then, but by now I knew that he had completely ripped me off by having me pay for 600 rwhp and then claiming to deliver 500rwhp which itself was not fulfilled. This is a main issue I have with him.


How could I possibly bring the car back to the guy that just ripped me off?

Meanwhile, the car is stored as it has been for most of time since I took delivery of it. It still doesn’t run right. It goes into failsafe mode if I run past 6k or so and it takes it’s sweet time to get in that rpm range. It’s truly, a Frankenstein of M5’s – just as the D/A banner ad shows.

There is more that I can say to bring full visibility to the actual capability of this clown to build an E39 M5 engine but this recounting of my experience with Discovery Automotive should suffice as a warning and my recommendation to look elsewhere.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
mate, sorry to hear about your sad tale. Customer service is something that a lot of businesses provide, right up to the point the deal is sealed, and then forget it.
 
#6 ·
Man sorry to hear - I woulda never thought those guys to be such dirtbags, and not even able to make their own installs run right!! I would definitely see if anything legally could be done about recouping your costs for a shoddy product and terrible service! I will most certainly not be contacting those guys to boost my M5 - definitely holding out for the HPF twin turbo kit - hope you get everything resolved!!
 
#7 ·
If the car was running sooo bad from the moment you pulled out of DA,why did you not turn right around??? You never brought the car back to DA, instead let it sit for months. Then want someone else to look at it. So for those months it could have been back at DA. Then another 6-8 months of sitting on it. To yet again, to have someone else work on it.
I have seen first hand the quality of work that Shadowman can do, all I can say is impressive!! And his follow up with customer care and needs is equally impressive! So my suggestion is to contact DA and work out your concerns so both parties are happy.
 
#8 ·
There has to be more to the story.
All I see on this board, the M3 boards, the Ford GT boards...ect.. is good things about D/A.
I know that Shadowman even flew out to Barain to help on the delivery of BlackM5's M5. When I deal with Sean or Shadowman on a customer level base I get nothing but the best.
What abou the quote on the build sheet?? I'll quote it here.......

"Beautiful masterpiece!!!

Wow, pictures just don't do it justice. It definitely sounds mean.

The GC setup is just right for now. I like driving this car when it's underway. The ride is nice. Truly a joy - and tight. I've put less than 100 miles on it I'd say. I'm being easy with her.

Everyone including people that didn't seem to care about cars were very impressed and those in the know were awed - god, such workmanship! Please tell everyone that I thank them very much for giving a part of themselves to this project. The Cartelligent guys (auto brokers I've used) next door to the storage were all at the window and some outside. They were ecstatic.

AWESOME WORK Bill!
Thanks and Well Done!

Basil

It seems weird to me that there is all this drama and not another side to the story. :dunno:
 
#9 ·
Well, it does look beautiful and it does sound mean. Opening up the hood reveals a very nice trick setup that looked like fine workmanship - the kind that I had heard about. A lot of it is indeed nice workmanship. I was leaving out the clutch issue as I did want to maintain a relationship that would see the bug(s) worked out of the car and I did say that it was fine when underway. By that I meant at a 60-70 mph freeway cruise. At 100 miles I was running the car very gingerly still. I suspected that the car was low on power but there was no way I could confirm that until a few weeks later, at around 1500miles. I noticed the crankcase leak after I wrote that. I wrote that in the evening of the day of delivery or the next as I recall.

I wish I could take back all of those words. I didn't give him permission to post those on his site, including my name. That was from an email to him that was for his eyes and perhaps the team. I said those words because I wanted to be in Bill's good graces so he would take care of me and because I was giving Bill the benefit of the doubt since the owners of the "Twins" were satisfied. And heck, it does look great! It looks great right now inside and out - in the car storage.

Heck, I even sent him ten lbs. of jumbo Alaskan King Crab legs just before he sent the car to me. I'm such a chump...
 
#10 · (Edited)
Shadowman used to be a very articulate member here,vey well thought out posts ,while his customers were spending upwards of $100K.Heck, I even mentioned he sounded like a Oxford Don(yes I went for 1 year-Balliol).After all the manure he posted about RMS(turns out to be true),it looks like the kettle has turned black indeed.I hope Gustav looks into this,as D/A is still a sponsor.
 
#13 ·
Basil,you have been very genteel.Hopefully,D/A will come to the rescue and sort this out.For that amount of money,I would be camping out on his front porch.
 
#14 ·
Sorry to hear this. I can't help feeling that there is more to this story as Josh alluded to.

I never had anything but top notch customer service from Bill, Will & Sean at DA.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
. You should take it to small claim court or consult an attorney. You may be able to recup a lot of money even after attorney fees is paid. Bottom line is you paid alot of money for something that was never delivered. I think you got a good case.

Basil you sound like a very nice resonable person with a lot of money. Sounds like this guy took you for a chump, maybe cause you have been so kind and patience he figured he could walk all over you. I would have raised hell and went down there and may have done illegal things.
 
#19 · (Edited by Moderator)
. You should take it to small claim court or consult an attorney. You may be able to recup a lot of money even after attorney fees is paid. Bottom line is you paid alot of money for something that was never delivered. I think you got a good case.
How in the world can you state things like this without having any idea if there is even a written project brief?

Basil you sound like a very nice resonable person with a lot of money. Sounds like this guy took you for a chump, maybe cause you have been so kind and patience he figured he could walk all over you. I would have raised hell and went down there and may have done illegal things.
Regrettably as we have seen on numerous occasions there are often multiple sides to these stories and every person involved is welcome to state their opinions. Escalating this kind of situation unnecessarily is not going to be good for anyone but a bunch of lawyers. It is understandable and allowable that the people involved can be emotional, however we will not allow external parties being less than factual and constructive.
 
#18 ·
This thread reminds me a bit of when I had my Corvette modified. It was a 1992 base car, originally rated at 300 HP. The shop that I chose for this work had done some LT1 > LT4 conversions and said that we could get 450 HP easily. I gave him the car, my budget and restrictions (keep the stock exhaust) and a couple of months later...

Well, in my business it's called scope creep. It's when you start with a particular goal, but as you get into the project you add more features and shiny farkles and the next thing you know you're 50% over budget and 2 years behind schedule.

It was one of those "as long as you're in there" things, so I kept adding things on and then he called and said the car wasn't making the power that they expected because the stock exhaust was too restrictive so they threw on a B&B system (which was lovely but horribly loud and boomy) and although the car handled great and had nice power, it wasn't what I had originally wanted. And I went 50% over budget. :3:

The $16K I spent on that (in 1997) was nothing compared to the OP's outlay for his beast, and I put nearly 10K track miles on that car with only a few relatively minor problems. I did stuff it in the wall at Road Atlanta once and ended up selling the car to a friend of mine who stuffed into the ARMCO at VIR which was the end of that poor car.

I understand the reluctance to return a car to a shop where you don't really trust the work, and you don't want to shell out more money when you feel that you have been "taken". However, it's probably not fair to blast the guy on a public forum if you never gave him the chance to make it right...

Michael
 
#22 ·
I'm not sure how much will get resolved on this complicated matter with a 'tit for tat' between Bill and Basil on an internet message board. But I can speak for my experience with D/A.

As the owner of the other 'twin', I'm with Josh in saying that Bill's work is a masterpiece, both performance-wise and esthetics-wise. Worth every dime. The brakes are flawless, the clutch is more pleasurable to use than the clutch in my stock beast, the quality, fit and finish of everything D/A touched is perfect. And the acceleration, well, it is monstrously fast. My local tuner (who has experience with many modded and exotic cars) is fond of telling the story that after taking Diablo out for a solo spin, he came back and had to sit on his couch for 10 minutes to recover.. he had never experienced such acceleration. (Ok, he hasn't driven Joe's s/c'd Viper...;)) I have not dyno'd my car, but we all have seen Josh's dyno data... almost 700whp on pump gas. There is no arguing about that. Clearly Bill knows how to build exquisite, show-worthy cars and tune them for amazing output.

And too, I've had nothing but the finest attention and service from Bill, Sean, and D/A. Whenever I have a question about anything, I pick up the phone and talk to Bill directly. No matter how busy he is, I seem to have his full attention. If any issue comes up, Bill is available and interested to help troubleshoot and resolve. I think Bill takes great pride in the work that comes out of his shop. This is reflected in the details. The devil (and cost!) is always in the details, and it is apparent that D/A pays attention to every detail. When I say 'show quality', I really mean show quality.

When I was contemplating purchasing El Diablo from BlackM5 in 2006, I did lots of homework. Part of it involved looking carefully at Josh's experience with D/A. Josh lives close enough to me that I could visit him and talk to him extensively about his car and his experiences. These conversations were one of the the biggest reasons I decided to fly out to look at the car and pursue the sale. Josh had nothing but good things to say, and keep in mind that Josh was not Bill's original customer on the car.

A year and a half later, my positive opinion of D/A has not diminished...it has only been enhanced because Bill's service has not diminished. When my local tuner and I wanted to try some new things, Bill was readily on the phone for consultation. Keep in mind that I'm also not the original customer on the car and I'm not spending any money at D/A. In my biz, consultant's time usually comes with a platinum price tag. Bill's time and accessibility has always been free of charge.

I don't know the details behind this particular situation. Basil and I chatted intermittently over the last year or so, and he told me Bill offered to take a look at the car about a year ago. He also told me about others looking at the car. I'm not sure about follow up attempts to actually get the car back to D/A for a look. Living just four hours from D/A, this seems like a logical next step. My sense is that there may have been some misunderstandings about the project deliverables. The project looks to have been scoped out as a detuned version of the twins... ie, SQ s/c, no secondary injectors, lower compression pistons. Was hp clearly understood in terms of bhp or whp? One thing is painfully clear - there are emotions at play. Name-calling is never an effective way to resolve a difficult situation.

Basil, my recommendation would be for you to set aside your feelings and re-focus on getting your car back to D/A for a look. You've come too far to simply give up and let the car languish in storage hoping to forget the whole thing. As I mentioned in the other thread, you've got some great hardware: a titanium and forged, balanced and blueprinted sleeping dragon under your hood, as well as an esthetic masterpiece. You need to work with Bill to get her fully dialed in so the car's potential can be unleashed. Trust me (and Josh), when dialed in, these cars are amazing.

Let me know if I can help in any way.

Dave
 
#23 · (Edited by Moderator)
paypalbid;1268834 You should take it to small claim court or consult an attorney. You may be able to recup a lot of money even after attorney fees is paid. Bottom line is you paid alot of money for something that was never delivered. I think you got a good case. [/quote said:
:nono: Your knowledge of how to go about things shows true in your post. First of learn to spell, its "recoup" not "recup" and "a lot" has always been 2 words!

Now for small claims court, are you serious? Do you have any clue what you are talking about? The answer is NO, small claims in California is $10,000 and under, OH btw no attorney's allowed or fee's recouped!

I will apologize in advance, however there is a long history with DA and the board, and we have a member who has spent over 100k and isn't happy.

Next time use your other 60 IQ points and please add something to the thread.

Thank You.
 
#26 · (Edited)
:nono: Your knowledge of how to go about things shows true in your post. First of learn to spell, its "recoup" not "recup" and "a lot" has always been 2 words!

Now for small claims court, are you serious? Do you have any clue what you are talking about? The answer is NO, small claims in California is $10,000 and under, OH btw no attorney's allowed or fee's recouped!

I will apologize in advance, however there is a long history with DA and the board, and we have a member who has spent over 100k and isn't happy.

Next time use your other 60 IQ points and please add something to the thread.

Thank You.

Small claims court in california limit is $7,500 I believe at least it is some money. Please don't insult my spelling and IQ. I was typing the post at 2:00AM in the morning while watching TV and what 's up with calling me with 60 IQ. Since you live in Thousand Oaks/Newbury Park so next time if I see you driving around town in your silver M5 or X5 I will come up to you in my car and I hope you will say that to my face. If you can't say that to my face then please dont insult me and hide behind a computer. I will look for a silver M5 in town and see what your mug looks like.
 
#24 ·
Josh and David have D/A masterpieces for sure.Maybe they can lend a hand to Basil?But really,100k for 400+ wrhp is just plain ugly.Best of luck to Basil and Shadowman.Hopefully, they get a good ending.
 
#25 ·
Actually... I believe he paid 70k. He would need an extra 15-20k for the set like mine and Dave's. Our motors with the excessories(sorry for the spelling my IQ is pretty low too:hihihi:) is in the 85-90k range. In the M5 world.. its not that crazy.

Dave...
I agree 100%. My customer service has been amazing. I deal with both Sean(Supercharged) and Bill(Shadowman). Same with me...I didn't purchase my car through them.. but the help and consulting on the phone was second to none. Now I am a "forever" customer. Sean has helped me in more ways than just business as well. We've had lunch... he sent me text on where certain areas of L.A. are... and calls me from time to time to ask me how the car is running and when the last time I waxed her..lol. Just to make sure im taking care of the gal.

The more I think about it... I wonder if the two guys complaining about there customer service have actually dealt with D/A.. or maybe in general are crazy to deal with anyway. :dunno: There are numerous people on this board that back D/A and have only good things to say.

Basil...
Your car is amazing...... I actually heard it put down just under 500hp BEFORE the "other place" got there hands on it and wanted to "change" a few things........
El Diablo sort of went through a situation like that......... There is always someone, whether they are haters or not...., that thinks they can better something there own way... sometimes they can..... but usually they dig themselves or the customer into a bigger hole.. then blame it on the "original" builder. I have a strange feeling(based on some knowledge) that this may be a similar situation.
 
#29 ·
I don't know either of you... But I know what weird threats can lead to. Maybe you guys should clean up those posts. In my world.. threats can be taken VERY serious and when acted on they lead to jail time and in some instances death. I have seen it plenty of times. I have friends who have died.. some paralized.. and dudes who are doing serious time for something that started out as petty or even even less petty than making fun of some ones grammer.

It aint worth it.:M5thumbs:
 
#33 ·
WOW.....had to recheck the address. For a minute there I thought I was on bimmerforums. Nope, right place, but not the usual tone. :dunno:
 
#35 ·
"It is about the full enchilada: attention to exquisite appearance, integration, and detail. An artistic rendering of a car's mechanical possibilities." Sounds like Dinan to me Dave.J/K.......I know it is not just about high horespower numbers.I think IMHO,Basil after spending upwards of 70K,was under the impression he was getting alot more horsepower than what he has now.I respect D/A and their craftmanship.And yes there always are 2 sides to a story.Hopefully we can hear both sides.If I was a future customer I would be somewhat interested (inquiring minds want to know;))
 
#36 ·
^+1... if Bill has nothing to hide (and I'm certainly not suggesting he does) then why not volunteer an explanation? It is quite possible for him to do so in a calm respectful manner - a suggestion which I hope is taken to heart throughout the rest of this thread.
 
#37 ·
I have had good luck dealing with Disovery. I bought only a few small things from them but they still treated me like someone spending 100k. That being said, I would still like to hear D/A's side of the story. Bill's post was kind of legalish, Clintonish, Bondish, Clemenish sounding...
 
#38 · (Edited)
Some hard and fast measurements

This is an email from Edge discussing the results of my D/A M5. They dynoed my car after fixing the vacuum leaks (434rwhp then 432). The engine had about 1700-1900 miles on it.


Basil,

As we discussed, our testing has revealed several issues that still exist with your car. We fixed one vacuum leak (at S/C inlet) and two Vacuum leaks (Intercooler fittings in the plenum and carbon fiber “Y” pipe. We then drove the car for about 75 miles to reset adaptation (per Discovery’s recommendation) and retested. The car is still showing as being lean above 3500 rpm. We re-verified fuel pressure and smoke tested the engine. There are no vacuum or boost leaks and the fuel pressure is fine. The regulator is also working properly.

We then drove the car and checked parameters. We found several oddities:

* Cylinder 5’s timing is 10-15 degrees less advanced than the other cylinders (this is presumably because the ECU is pulling timing)
* Bank 2 runs less fuel injector pulsewidth at WOT than bank 1. Not necessarily a concern on its own, but interesting nonetheless.
* VANOS adaptation is 5-6 degress off of “spec”
* At partial load and 4000-5000 RPM, the car hesitates BADLY
* Bank 1 smooth running values are all in the “+” while bank 2 is all in “-“ (-40 to -200)


Compression and Leakdown tests further revealed some possible issues:
1: 165psi (15%)
2: 153psi (13%)
3: 122psi (12%)
4: 157psi (15%)

5: 114psi (15%)
6: 109psi (17%)
7: 144psi (14%)
8: 135psi (13%)

The low and high cylinders were re-tested with no significant change in value. Bank 2 has lower compression in general than Bank1, as well as higher leakdown percentage on average. It also seems to have the most significant computer intervention. Tests were conducted warm. I will share this info with Bill and Sean at Discovery also.

Please let me know how you would like to proceed. Thanks!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top