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I really dont think so. It is a simple power to weight problem, and even though the E60 might have better optimized gear ratios, the Vette weighs a lot less. Gearing helps a lot in terms of putting down the most amount of torque possible, but the M5 is a heavy car. Time will tell, but if history repeats itself like it did with the C5 Z06 and the E39 M5, the C6 Z06 will blow it away. I can take that easily too, as the Vette is a 2 seater sports car, and the E60 isnt...
:cheers:
 

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BmwNut said:
I really dont think so. It is a simple power to weight problem, and even though the E60 might have better optimized gear ratios, the Vette weighs a lot less. Gearing helps a lot in terms of putting down the most amount of torque possible, but the M5 is a heavy car. Time will tell, but if history repeats itself like it did with the C5 Z06 and the E39 M5, the C6 Z06 will blow it away. I can take that easily too, as the Vette is a 2 seater sports car, and the E60 isnt...
:cheers:
while its never a simple power to weight problem i don't think the m5 will quite be able to match it, even at high speeds.
Having said that the m5 does well against the gallardo and the m6 does well against the viper which are both rated similarly to the c6 at 500hp and have significantly less weight than the M cars. I'm not sure about the drag properties of the c6 but it atleast looks pretty aerodynamic. It has been stated on this board that the m5 is underated so thats another consideration. I guess time will tell
 

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knowing M5 is faster than cars like F430, Gallardo, Viper, and X50 Porsche 996 turbo accelerating into ultra high speed. i wouldn't be surprised if M5 is also faster than the new Z06 into 3 digit speed. but speed on track on the otherhand...
 

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As you get faster, the dominant factor increasingly moves from power/weight to power/drag. The M5 has a surprisingly good CD and many cars that look sleeker have worse CDs. However, this is not terribly surprising because the M5 is designed to be efficient and quiet at high speed, and this militates for aerodynamic efficiency. While dedicated sports cars also want aerodynamic efficiency, they are also willing to convert some of this to downforce, though I also suspect that some of their drag from forms that are more stylistically cool rather than functional.


Tom
 

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bernhtp said:
As you get faster, the dominant factor increasingly moves from power/weight to power/drag. The M5 has a surprisingly good CD and many cars that look sleeker have worse CDs. However, this is not terribly surprising because the M5 is designed to be efficient and quiet at high speed, and this militates for aerodynamic efficiency. While dedicated sports cars also want aerodynamic efficiency, they are also willing to convert some of this to downforce, though I also suspect that some of their drag from forms that are more stylistically cool rather than functional.


Tom
Absolutely correct. One additional point is the total drag is the CD multiplied by the frontal area of the car. I'm afraid the M5 has a larger frontal area than the 'vette, so it may not have much of an advantage even if the CD is lower.

The M5 does seem to be a beast at higher speeds though. If it's really running higher than the 500 hp, with the better gearing it could give the 'vette a good race.

The solution is to race a C06 with it's top down - you've got a significant advantage at higher speeds for sure then.
 

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Also gearing will have a big impact and the M5 has the 7 speeds whereas the Vette has... what? 6? In any matter, both seem to be outstanding vehicles that I am grateful to know, as an auto enthusiast, are/ will be available to us.
 

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the vette is faster.. bigger engine, more torque throughout the rev band (albeit narower than the m5 one), lighter.

it has already shown it- the car is a mid-high 11s and it just completed the ring in 7:40- very very fast by any standard.

the m5 is fast, but not that fast.

here it the link:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/news_article.asp?na_id=216013

btw, at #17 on the list, there are only 2 stock cars ahead of the new z06- an achievement on its own.


alex
few cars
 

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AJ said:
the vette is faster.. bigger engine, more torque throughout the rev band (albeit narower than the m5 one), lighter.

it has already shown it- the car is a mid-high 11s and it just completed the ring in 7:40- very very fast by any standard.

the m5 is fast, but not that fast.

here it the link:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/news_article.asp?na_id=216013

btw, at #17 on the list, there are only 2 stock cars ahead of the new z06- an achievement on its own.
According to the link, the 7:40 time is not for the Z06 but for the 600 hp, 7-liter "Blue Devil" project, about which GM's Lutz said the following: "We’re going to do something beyond the Z06, at a much higher price point, and which would compete with some of the leading high-performance cars of the world." I expect the Z06 to be somewhat faster than the M5, but we will have to await more extensive testing and real-world driving impressions concerning which is easier to drive quickly.
 

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Here's a graph I put together for an earlier thread on this same subject. I think the Z06 will always be ahead. It has a lot more power under the curve, is much lighter and has a lower total drag (Cd * Af). It appears the Vette is going to trap close to 130mph in the 1/4 mile.
 

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It will be interesting to see what quarter mile times the M5 gets on sticky surface drag strips. E55 owners often get times in such venues significantly better than those published in auto magazines.


Tom
 

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CSBM5 said:
Here's a graph I put together for an earlier thread on this same subject. I think the Z06 will always be ahead. It has a lot more power under the curve, is much lighter and has a lower total drag (Cd * Af). It appears the Vette is going to trap close to 130mph in the 1/4 mile.
Using your graph, the area under the power curve for the last 2500 RPM of the power band - the relevant section for racing - appears to very slightly favor the M5, though probably not materially unless the extra gear (gear effects not shown on the graph) keeps the M5 a bit better in its power zone.

If the Z06 has lower total drag, I would expect its (unlimited) top end to exceed the M5's 205mph. Is this the (claimed) case?

The effect of the Z06's significantly lower weight will have enormous effects, especially below 100mph, but will quickly diminish as speeds increase above that.

The M5 will not be competitive with the Z06 from the start or on the curve, but it could surprise many with similar performance at very high speeds.

Tom
 

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bernhtp said:
Using your graph, the area under the power curve for the last 2500 RPM of the power band - the relevant section for racing - appears to very slightly favor the M5, though probably not materially unless the extra gear (gear effects not shown on the graph) keeps the M5 a bit better in its power zone.

If the Z06 has lower total drag, I would expect its (unlimited) top end to exceed the M5's 205mph. Is this the (claimed) case?

The effect of the Z06's significantly lower weight will have enormous effects, especially below 100mph, but will quickly diminish as speeds increase above that.

The M5 will not be competitive with the Z06 from the start or on the curve, but it could surprise many with similar performance at very high speeds.

Tom
All excellent points Tom. From looking at it the graph, it may be that up at the very high end where the M5 will have to be kept singing to get max acceleration out of it, that the M5 will develop more power longer -- more area -- as you mentioned. I guess there is one thing we can state for sure: if you are caught in the wrong gear in the M5, you're toast. Driving the M5 at its limits will be more like driving a 125cc 2-stroke motocross bike where gear selection is so critical to keep the engine "on the pipe" whereas driving the C6 Z06 will be like driving a 500cc motocross bike where being caught a gear down is no big deal. :)

Chuck
 

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CSBM5 said:
I guess there is one thing we can state for sure: if you are caught in the wrong gear in the M5, you're toast.
Hence the seven gears and the SMG's effortless ability to virtually instantly change to the right gear. While your motorcycle analogy overstates the issue, it is also clear that the 7-speed SMG is an absolutely integral part of the M5's performance solution. BMW thought this through, and thus their reluctance to produce a six-speed manual.

Tom
 

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Agreed. Being in the wrong gear in a 125 mx bike can be the difference between 8hp and 20+hp, so I was perhaps bit extreme. ;) However, having owned many highly tuned naturally aspirated cars (along with a 125 MX bike I still have), having to always sing the motor like mad gets old -- at least it did with me. The E39 M5 is a joy to drive by contrast. I'll reserve any further judgement until I drive the E60 and see how flexible that motor really is in everyday driving. At the track, it's no big deal and actually fun to drive a nasty n/a motor, hitting all the shifts just right, always keeping the motor strung out; however, the everyday grind of living with the engine can be a different story. I doubt the E60 will fit that type of mold however.
 

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The ZO6 will most likely outperform even the Viper which was quicker than the M5 in Gustav's writeup by my recollection. The ZO6 is 300-400 lb lighter than the Viper with roughly the same power/tq.

Here's some interesting data that I quote from the Corvette Forum....I haven't checked all the data for accuracy.....

Ferrari Enzo 3230 lbs. 4.96/bhp $652,000
Porsche Carrera GT 3146lbs. 5.20/bhp $448,400
Saleen S7 2870 lbs. 5.21/bhp $395,000
Mercedes SLR McLaren 3805 lbs. 6.16/bhp $430,000
Corvette Z06 3132 lbs. 6.20/bhp $69,500
Ford GT 3468 lbs. 6.30/bhp $155,845
Ferrari 430 3200 lbs. 6.62/bhp $205,932
Lambo Gallardo 3560 lbs. 7.12/bhp $187,000
Dodge SRT 3410 lbs 7.20/bhp $84,000
Lambo Murcie 4010 lbs. 7.22/bhp $283,000
M5 4096lbs, 7.96/bhp.
Ferrari 575 M 4010 lbs. 8.16/bhp $229,000
Porsche 996 Turbo 3530 lbs. 8.24/bhp $135,000
Aston Martin Vanquish 4027 lbs. 8.75/bhp $223,000
 

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I believe in de-tuned form, the M5 will be faster in top speed. I also think that a properly broken-in M5 will be capable of keeping up with a Z06. Through the gears though, I dont think the M will be as fast as a ZO6.
 

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CSBM5 said:
All excellent points Tom. From looking at it the graph, it may be that up at the very high end where the M5 will have to be kept singing to get max acceleration out of it, that the M5 will develop more power longer -- more area -- as you mentioned. I guess there is one thing we can state for sure: if you are caught in the wrong gear in the M5, you're toast. Driving the M5 at its limits will be more like driving a 125cc 2-stroke motocross bike where gear selection is so critical to keep the engine "on the pipe" whereas driving the C6 Z06 will be like driving a 500cc motocross bike where being caught a gear down is no big deal. :)

Chuck
Yes, the power curve for the M5 from 5500 - 8500 rpm (I hear the M5 revs to 8500 under full throttle in max mode) gives it an advantage over the 'vette. HP to weight ratio severely favors the 'vette. The 7 speed SMG severely favors the M5.

The transmissions really make it interesting. If you're talking about an automatic 'vette, then subtract about 25 hp for transmission loss to the rear wheels. For a manual 'vette, you'll need a very, very good driver to match the times the carmags are reporting. Most likely, the SMG will pickup a few tenths just because of the shift speed. For the M5 if you use launch control and 'M' mode, it would seem to be fairly simple to come very close to the optimum times in a 'stoplight drag'. I'm also assuming that the SMG 'kicks-down' to the proper gear whenever you floor the throttle from a roll.

I'll bet a real-world race, either from a stoplight, or from a roll, will be a drivers race. The manual 'vette will need a very very good driver, and the auto 'vette will lose some hp, and might not kickdown to the right gear.

I would agree that if you compare the best times for both cars, the 'vette wins, especially from a standing start.
 
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