Considering that the Z8 is selling for WAY over list price (I've heard of prices around $300K!), I feel I got quite a bargain with my M5. Same engine as the Z8. Same top speed. More amenities and creature comforts, and a usable back seat and trunk. I don't get why anyone would want a Z8 when you could get an M5 and an M roadster, and still have money left over!
Considering Z8 prices, do you feel you got a bargain?
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I'd agree with Steve, it is a great bargain, considering the cars technically are essentially the same, apart from the bodywork...and i dont believe in exclusivity achieved by high prices/low production numbers solely, its called marketing (here comes aston martin, rolls (with worse built quality than 750iL), etc.)...the only exclusivity which is real, i think it is an exclusivity of technical superiority, an exclusivity of know-how...thats is why M5 is exclusive in its class and M3 too, while in Z8 class there are cars that ultimately are more able and potent, with more pedigree and tradition and in this market segment it counts, like 996TT or 360.
probably its easy to conclude from my post the message...i am not impressed with either looks or idea behind Z8, especially considering its ridiculous price. Personally i'd buy another car for the same money or cars for that matter.
'nuff said
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SL
probably its easy to conclude from my post the message...i am not impressed with either looks or idea behind Z8, especially considering its ridiculous price. Personally i'd buy another car for the same money or cars for that matter.
'nuff said
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SL
Look if you can afford to pay 250k for the z8 then that amount doesn't mean much to you. It may mean alot, but in terms of it affecting your life whether or not you have that 250k and the idea that you can spend 250k a pop on a luxury item means you got alot of cash to burn.
Nobody spends their whole wad on a car. Its just gravy. Its probably very nice to be them barring no other bad things (but hey we're dreaming so why not make it a utopia?).
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00' ///M5 Titanium Silver/Caramel
00' Vette convertible NBM
Nobody spends their whole wad on a car. Its just gravy. Its probably very nice to be them barring no other bad things (but hey we're dreaming so why not make it a utopia?).
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00' ///M5 Titanium Silver/Caramel
00' Vette convertible NBM
i have to confess that i simply do not "get" the Z8.
it's neat, but IMO it's not a long-term classic. it was a fun little car they put out and they won't put out more after a spell.
and it's just not "classically beautiful". in fact, i personally find it a bit odd looking - superb from some angles but flat out weird from others. the old 911s and XKs etc. etc. are all clasically beautiful and will remain so. i doubt the Z8 will make their ranks.
for a quarter mil and up, this is not that impressive a car. even at list price you can do better (as best i can tell).
the ragtop 996TT will be rolling off the line in the not-too-distant future. half the price. way more impressive performance.
count me clueless. for half what people are paying for Z8s i'd take a nice F355 spyder instead in a heartbeat. never mind the 996TT.
i guess if you love it you love it and that's that. but i'm afraid i don't grok.
sab
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'00 M5
'01 M Roadster (on order)
98.5 A4QS (it snows here)
it's neat, but IMO it's not a long-term classic. it was a fun little car they put out and they won't put out more after a spell.
and it's just not "classically beautiful". in fact, i personally find it a bit odd looking - superb from some angles but flat out weird from others. the old 911s and XKs etc. etc. are all clasically beautiful and will remain so. i doubt the Z8 will make their ranks.
for a quarter mil and up, this is not that impressive a car. even at list price you can do better (as best i can tell).
the ragtop 996TT will be rolling off the line in the not-too-distant future. half the price. way more impressive performance.
count me clueless. for half what people are paying for Z8s i'd take a nice F355 spyder instead in a heartbeat. never mind the 996TT.
i guess if you love it you love it and that's that. but i'm afraid i don't grok.
sab
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'00 M5
'01 M Roadster (on order)
98.5 A4QS (it snows here)
These are all well-thought responses.
ME - I guess what I'm trying to says is that "for the money, the M5 is more car than the Z8." The Z8 is only quicker because it's smaller and lighter. But the Z8 also doesn't have a back seat or usable trunk. Does it have nav? Does it have 14-speaker DSP stereo system? The M5, IMHO, is just as "exclusive" as the Z8.
The Z8 isn't, IMHO, a timeless classic that justifies the outragious prices people are paying. As SAB says, you can get a Ferrari spyder, or 911 for less.
Of course, the new M3 buyers are going to say they're getting a bargain vs. the M5.
ME - I guess what I'm trying to says is that "for the money, the M5 is more car than the Z8." The Z8 is only quicker because it's smaller and lighter. But the Z8 also doesn't have a back seat or usable trunk. Does it have nav? Does it have 14-speaker DSP stereo system? The M5, IMHO, is just as "exclusive" as the Z8.
The Z8 isn't, IMHO, a timeless classic that justifies the outragious prices people are paying. As SAB says, you can get a Ferrari spyder, or 911 for less.
Of course, the new M3 buyers are going to say they're getting a bargain vs. the M5.
A great PHILOSOPHER once told me, that in life, when you cant answer a question, always look back at 80's sitcom theme music. And without any further adue, let me quote onc of the most brilliant theme songs ever :
"It takes different strokes to move the world, yes it does, it takes, different strokes to move the woooooooooooorrrrrrrlllllllllldd, hmmmmmmmmmmmm"
![]()
with that said, would i get a z8, no, i would get a 911TT or if i could afford a weekend car, a 360 modena. But this is all respective. I mean somebody could say why not just get a vette, which modded will be as fast as a 911TT, and this is true. Different strokes for different folks.
I really think that at around $30K, you get diminishing returns on your dollar in the car market. Imagine, for 30K you can get an acura 3.2TL with just about the same ammenities that we have in the M5, and also much less then the 530i with the same standard equipment. Imagine the TL guys must be laughing all the way to the bank thinking we paid about $500/hp more then they do for our additional 180or so horses. I know the argument is weak, but the same goes for the z8 or bently. The added dollar in the car market is not just for more power/luxury, its also for exclusivity. Wether you guys like it or not, its the truth. I dont think many people here would of bought the M5 if it was as common as a honda accord, I would, but im saying i dont think everybody would.
my .02cents
"It takes different strokes to move the world, yes it does, it takes, different strokes to move the woooooooooooorrrrrrrlllllllllldd, hmmmmmmmmmmmm"
with that said, would i get a z8, no, i would get a 911TT or if i could afford a weekend car, a 360 modena. But this is all respective. I mean somebody could say why not just get a vette, which modded will be as fast as a 911TT, and this is true. Different strokes for different folks.
I really think that at around $30K, you get diminishing returns on your dollar in the car market. Imagine, for 30K you can get an acura 3.2TL with just about the same ammenities that we have in the M5, and also much less then the 530i with the same standard equipment. Imagine the TL guys must be laughing all the way to the bank thinking we paid about $500/hp more then they do for our additional 180or so horses. I know the argument is weak, but the same goes for the z8 or bently. The added dollar in the car market is not just for more power/luxury, its also for exclusivity. Wether you guys like it or not, its the truth. I dont think many people here would of bought the M5 if it was as common as a honda accord, I would, but im saying i dont think everybody would.
my .02cents
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Hi Steve,
I understand what youre saying, and I agree with you that dollar for dollar youll get more with the M5 than just about any other vehicle I can think of. But understand this statement incorporates my bias in favor of a "drivers car". If you wanted convienent transportation for 6 kids, your wife and your dog, the M5 isnt a good choice.
I also agree with fais200 about the "diminishing returns" after a certain price point.
My point is for someone who wants a drivers car and will only have one car, the M5 is great, but to call it a bargain based on the fact that it has more seats than a true sports car doesnt work because its not an apples to apples comparison. To compare common parts- sure- you get the engine and transmission for less. To compare performance numbers, sure- but I can find Toyotas that beat the M5s numbers and they dont comapre (to me anyhow) to the M5. Driving experiences? Incomparable.
I cant say if the Z8 is a timeless classic. Btw- I do think its as close to a “modern classic” as youll see a company like BMW make. But that wasn’t your question, which was
Considering Z8 prices, do you think you got a bargain? And were back to my point that its not something capable of comparison.
Having driven many sports cars, I can tell you that for some people, the price difference is more than justified. For others, they will say, why blow all that money on a sports car or sports sedan, you could have gone on vacation. But they could say that also. its just about preferences.
you pay the price for a true sports car b/c of the sensation of driving a true sports car- something the M5 just doesnt give you. Not that the M5 is a bad car- its great, but its a sedan. The premium for the M5 over the stock 5 series and the premium for a 911 or 360 or whatever is that they provide you with extra sensations. Each one different, each one unique. At the level of the 911, Z8, 360, etc youre not talking about cars as commodoties- youre talking about unique experiences. Why buy a M3 over the standard 330? What does that premium in price represent? Its not rational on the face of it- it is rational when you say, “I like driving and this is more of a drivers car” ; so the premium is for something you “like”, which is fine.
And like I said previously, you could flip it around so that an owner of a 530 could ask, considering the high price of the M5, do you think the 530 is a bargain? After all you get nearly the same seats, nearly the same interior pieces, the bmw logo, etc for much less- especially when the M5s commanded dollars over MSRP. And you can keep going down the spirial......
As to exclusivity- they are making 4000 Z8s for the world over the next 2-3 years- and then thats it. The USA gets around 40% of these cars. I dont know how many M5s are produced a year, but Im sure its more than 4000. The M5 is an exclusive car, but its nowhere near as exclusive as the Z8 in terms of production numbers. You might be cynical and say, theyll make more Z8s. Not so. The machines that are used to produce the Z8s are specially designed and will begin to fail somewhere around the 4000 number so while they could make 50 more than planned, they wont be doubling capacity.
finally, about the trunk and stereo: the Z8 does have a useable trunk- its actually more useable than youd think and the MY01 M5s that have MAudio in them have less trunk space from what I hear. The 14 speakers or whatever in the M5, unless they are substantially improved from my MY00 M5, are pretty awful. The actual speakers are the biggest weakness in their audio system. I actually don’t care much about the audio system- so long as it works and sounds decent (which it can with careful tuning). You wouldn’t buy a Z8, 911, Boxter, whathave you based on cargo space and the audio system, nor its lack of rear seat space. You buy it for more of what you paid the premium over the stock 5 series for with the M5: that sensation that, for some of us, is worth it.
ME
I understand what youre saying, and I agree with you that dollar for dollar youll get more with the M5 than just about any other vehicle I can think of. But understand this statement incorporates my bias in favor of a "drivers car". If you wanted convienent transportation for 6 kids, your wife and your dog, the M5 isnt a good choice.
I also agree with fais200 about the "diminishing returns" after a certain price point.
My point is for someone who wants a drivers car and will only have one car, the M5 is great, but to call it a bargain based on the fact that it has more seats than a true sports car doesnt work because its not an apples to apples comparison. To compare common parts- sure- you get the engine and transmission for less. To compare performance numbers, sure- but I can find Toyotas that beat the M5s numbers and they dont comapre (to me anyhow) to the M5. Driving experiences? Incomparable.
I cant say if the Z8 is a timeless classic. Btw- I do think its as close to a “modern classic” as youll see a company like BMW make. But that wasn’t your question, which was
Considering Z8 prices, do you think you got a bargain? And were back to my point that its not something capable of comparison.
Having driven many sports cars, I can tell you that for some people, the price difference is more than justified. For others, they will say, why blow all that money on a sports car or sports sedan, you could have gone on vacation. But they could say that also. its just about preferences.
you pay the price for a true sports car b/c of the sensation of driving a true sports car- something the M5 just doesnt give you. Not that the M5 is a bad car- its great, but its a sedan. The premium for the M5 over the stock 5 series and the premium for a 911 or 360 or whatever is that they provide you with extra sensations. Each one different, each one unique. At the level of the 911, Z8, 360, etc youre not talking about cars as commodoties- youre talking about unique experiences. Why buy a M3 over the standard 330? What does that premium in price represent? Its not rational on the face of it- it is rational when you say, “I like driving and this is more of a drivers car” ; so the premium is for something you “like”, which is fine.
And like I said previously, you could flip it around so that an owner of a 530 could ask, considering the high price of the M5, do you think the 530 is a bargain? After all you get nearly the same seats, nearly the same interior pieces, the bmw logo, etc for much less- especially when the M5s commanded dollars over MSRP. And you can keep going down the spirial......
As to exclusivity- they are making 4000 Z8s for the world over the next 2-3 years- and then thats it. The USA gets around 40% of these cars. I dont know how many M5s are produced a year, but Im sure its more than 4000. The M5 is an exclusive car, but its nowhere near as exclusive as the Z8 in terms of production numbers. You might be cynical and say, theyll make more Z8s. Not so. The machines that are used to produce the Z8s are specially designed and will begin to fail somewhere around the 4000 number so while they could make 50 more than planned, they wont be doubling capacity.
finally, about the trunk and stereo: the Z8 does have a useable trunk- its actually more useable than youd think and the MY01 M5s that have MAudio in them have less trunk space from what I hear. The 14 speakers or whatever in the M5, unless they are substantially improved from my MY00 M5, are pretty awful. The actual speakers are the biggest weakness in their audio system. I actually don’t care much about the audio system- so long as it works and sounds decent (which it can with careful tuning). You wouldn’t buy a Z8, 911, Boxter, whathave you based on cargo space and the audio system, nor its lack of rear seat space. You buy it for more of what you paid the premium over the stock 5 series for with the M5: that sensation that, for some of us, is worth it.
ME
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I agree with ME. I don't think it's fair to say who got the better bargain - they really are completely different cars. And as ME has pointed out, we can dig this discussion further down the line and compare a M5 to a modified 540 - it all depends on what you want.
Although I am very skeptical of those machines, ME
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Remember that BMW has to supply replacement parts for these cars, and if they are going to do as they have said (Produce parts for the Z8 for ~50 years because of the 'classic' status), they are gong to have to repair those machines
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-Chris
[This message has been edited by Chris Foote (edited 26 October 2000).]
Although I am very skeptical of those machines, ME
-Chris
[This message has been edited by Chris Foote (edited 26 October 2000).]
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10,698 Posts
Chris,
thanks and I agree about the replacement parts. They have said they will guarantee replacement parts for around 50 years. Apparently the wear and tear on the machines is for 4000 cars with aprox 50 years of replacement parts. How they factor that, I dont know. I would be surprised if they made an entire set of replacement parts for each car.
ME
thanks and I agree about the replacement parts. They have said they will guarantee replacement parts for around 50 years. Apparently the wear and tear on the machines is for 4000 cars with aprox 50 years of replacement parts. How they factor that, I dont know. I would be surprised if they made an entire set of replacement parts for each car.
ME
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I think the basis of the question is poor. That is: the Z8 and M5 share some mechanical components so we can compare them. Well, then why not compare all cars that have GM parts? Or why not compare the M5 and 530 sedans?
I think better questions would be: Considering the price of a E55 Mercedes, do you think you got a bargain? or Considering the price of a 530i, do you feel you got a bargain? Because there its closer to apples- to apples. And finally: When shopping for a M5 or performance sedan, were you looking for a bargain?
We should also think about how the M5 compares to other performance cars- Porsche, Ferrari, whatever have you. Why limit it to the Z8? Because it has some of the same mechanicals? Other cars have similar performance specs.
Compared to most sports cars, which are inherently limited on space, one could call the M5 a bargain.
However, to call something a bargain I feel that there are 2 ways to look at it. First, it can be relative. Second, you have to have some rationality behind it. Fact of the matter is what you are paying for with the M5 (over standard 5 series) is more feel, better suspension (better for driving feel), better engine (again makes you feel a certain way). Many people who just buy a 540 or a 530 might say, gosh, that M5, what a waste of money. I get the same amenities, the same safety, maybe 80% of the performance, but I dont care. BMW has really expanded their M lineup. I dont know for sure, but Im sure they're making a nice profit off it, and it has to be a nice margin b/c its a lower volume than their other cars. So think of all those components that stay the same and then try the comparison. You could say the 530 is a bargain compared to the M5!
Im not saying those people are right. But then think about those folks. Why buy a 530 over basic A-B trnasportation. Of course, there really is a value to safety, after that though, what did they buy? Point A to point B transportation, which can be had even cheaper.
Point is, once you get beyond taking care of the practical things (a-b, safety) youre left with all kinds of things that are there to help you rationalize a more expensive purchase (GPS, CD changer,bigger wheels, spoilers, etc).
So its easy to see how someone can say- that M5, what a bargain, while someone else says, that M5, what a waste!
The fact that many here own M5s says that they are at least willing to go somewhat extra for that feel. And therefore you could say that that person thinks that feel is a god thing.
Why criticize those who decide to go even further for more of a good thing? Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, whatever. Bottom line, life is too short, if you enjoy driving that Z8 or 996 or 360 and you could afford it then all I can say is congrats and best wishes.
To get back to the thread question: Considering Z8 prices, do you feel you got a bargain? The answer is I cant say. Comparing a sports sedan to a sports car is a very difficult thing to do.
ME
I think better questions would be: Considering the price of a E55 Mercedes, do you think you got a bargain? or Considering the price of a 530i, do you feel you got a bargain? Because there its closer to apples- to apples. And finally: When shopping for a M5 or performance sedan, were you looking for a bargain?
We should also think about how the M5 compares to other performance cars- Porsche, Ferrari, whatever have you. Why limit it to the Z8? Because it has some of the same mechanicals? Other cars have similar performance specs.
Compared to most sports cars, which are inherently limited on space, one could call the M5 a bargain.
However, to call something a bargain I feel that there are 2 ways to look at it. First, it can be relative. Second, you have to have some rationality behind it. Fact of the matter is what you are paying for with the M5 (over standard 5 series) is more feel, better suspension (better for driving feel), better engine (again makes you feel a certain way). Many people who just buy a 540 or a 530 might say, gosh, that M5, what a waste of money. I get the same amenities, the same safety, maybe 80% of the performance, but I dont care. BMW has really expanded their M lineup. I dont know for sure, but Im sure they're making a nice profit off it, and it has to be a nice margin b/c its a lower volume than their other cars. So think of all those components that stay the same and then try the comparison. You could say the 530 is a bargain compared to the M5!
Im not saying those people are right. But then think about those folks. Why buy a 530 over basic A-B trnasportation. Of course, there really is a value to safety, after that though, what did they buy? Point A to point B transportation, which can be had even cheaper.
Point is, once you get beyond taking care of the practical things (a-b, safety) youre left with all kinds of things that are there to help you rationalize a more expensive purchase (GPS, CD changer,bigger wheels, spoilers, etc).
So its easy to see how someone can say- that M5, what a bargain, while someone else says, that M5, what a waste!
The fact that many here own M5s says that they are at least willing to go somewhat extra for that feel. And therefore you could say that that person thinks that feel is a god thing.
Why criticize those who decide to go even further for more of a good thing? Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, whatever. Bottom line, life is too short, if you enjoy driving that Z8 or 996 or 360 and you could afford it then all I can say is congrats and best wishes.
To get back to the thread question: Considering Z8 prices, do you feel you got a bargain? The answer is I cant say. Comparing a sports sedan to a sports car is a very difficult thing to do.
ME
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ME, if you don't mind my asking, is insurance considerably higher for the Z8 compared to the M5?
-Chris
-Chris
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Hi Chris,
it is higher. Its because of the higher replacement cost of the Z8 and the fact that its configuration is a 2 seat convertible. The M5 is listed as a sedan.
ME
it is higher. Its because of the higher replacement cost of the Z8 and the fact that its configuration is a 2 seat convertible. The M5 is listed as a sedan.
ME
After posing the original question, and reading all the responses, I have to say that I do think we M5 drivers got a bargain compared to the Z8. More car (content) for less money. The argument about 540 and 530 drivers also getting a comparitive bargain holds some merit, but they did get LESS car for LESS money than an M5. Granted, they get 90% of the content for 60% of the price, but it's still less in both columns.
I don't buy the "buying exclusivity" crap about Z8 buyers. They are getting LESS CONTENT (only two seats, etc...) for LOTS MORE money.
They should be telling BMW "Kiss me! I like to get kissed when I'm getting screwed!"
I don't buy the "buying exclusivity" crap about Z8 buyers. They are getting LESS CONTENT (only two seats, etc...) for LOTS MORE money.
They should be telling BMW "Kiss me! I like to get kissed when I'm getting screwed!"
well the same holds for a mclaren, but i would get one in a heartbeat, if only those damn ipo's didnt take a plunge
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. or the
- ferrari 360 modena
- 550 marranello
- bentley azure
- aston martin vanquish/db7
- lambo diablo
etc. etc., besides the azure and db7, i would get the others if i could afford them, if i wanted a bargain, i would never buy bmw, i would get the acura 3.2tl or nissan maxima, T/A, or ls-1, all good bargains imho.
fas
[This message has been edited by fais2000 (edited 31 October 2000).]
- ferrari 360 modena
- 550 marranello
- bentley azure
- aston martin vanquish/db7
- lambo diablo
etc. etc., besides the azure and db7, i would get the others if i could afford them, if i wanted a bargain, i would never buy bmw, i would get the acura 3.2tl or nissan maxima, T/A, or ls-1, all good bargains imho.
fas
[This message has been edited by fais2000 (edited 31 October 2000).]
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10,698 Posts
Fais,
well said.
I forgot to add I was just in a fancy antique store that had a beautiful desk on sale for......... $500k!!! So compared to a $500k desk, I know I got a bargain with my M5! It has more chairs, has more storage space, is made out of better materials, etc.
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ME
[This message has been edited by MEnthusiast (edited 31 October 2000).]
well said.
I forgot to add I was just in a fancy antique store that had a beautiful desk on sale for......... $500k!!! So compared to a $500k desk, I know I got a bargain with my M5! It has more chairs, has more storage space, is made out of better materials, etc.
ME
[This message has been edited by MEnthusiast (edited 31 October 2000).]
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