[Rambino]

The Headers on the US model have the cats integrated in them..

Many replace the headers with the supersprint, but is it possible to just leave the stock headers and replace the cats?

VIA Turner Motorsport
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=E60M5-STAGE2-KIT

It appears they have a straight pipe for the header cats without changing the headers themselves.. Am I correct in this assumption?

I know that KiethTA did supersprint headers and high flow cats.. I never quite understood what he meant. Did he do the Supersprint Headers with No cats, and replaced the second set with high flow cats, or did he do the Supersprint headers with a section of integrated Hi Flow cats..

Basically are the cats on the headers replaceable for a straight pipe instead or is it all one complete system on our stock header setup thats not seperable

If there is just a simple Header Cat Delete, I would assume this would make close to the same power of an entire header system since it removes the biggest restriction.. Also the rest of the header and the 20hrs of labor required in removing and replacing it would not be needed.. Another thing is that if one needed to go back to stock, this should be an easy thing to do.. Am I correct in all these assumptions?

Thanks

 

[///Marshall]

The primary cats are part of the headers. To remove them you
need to cut them off. If you want to go this route I would suggest
going with RPi. The also use the OEM headers and cut off the cats
however they provide a means to put the cats back on in case of
emissions.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116747

They are also a hell of a lot cheaper

The Headers on the US model have the cats integrated in them..

Many replace the headers with the supersprint, but is it possible to just leave the stock headers and replace the cats?

VIA Turner Motorsport
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=E60M5-STAGE2-KIT

It appears they have a straight pipe for the header cats without changing the headers themselves.. Am I correct in this assumption?

I know that KiethTA did supersprint headers and high flow cats.. I never quite understood what he meant. Did he do the Supersprint Headers with No cats, and replaced the second set with high flow cats, or did he do the Supersprint headers with a section of integrated Hi Flow cats..

Basically are the cats on the headers replaceable for a straight pipe instead or is it all one complete system on our stock header setup thats not seperable

 

[Rambino]

Excellent Info.. Thank you.

I wonder if just going to an exhaust shop and having them cut the cats off the header and weld a a straight pipe would be the same and save all the time and money in replacing the whole header.

In the end when you needed the cats back on, you could goto the exhaust shop and have them re-welded back on..

Any thoughts on this, as Id like to avoid paying 4k and 20hrs of install time.. when i could do some chopping and welding for the same results.. sure its no bolton but it doesnt exactly need to be either..

 

[CBarton]

I don't think they are much cheaper.....They are $4299. And still require 15-20 hours of labor to install.....the only savings is not ever having to re-install stock headers down the road...and can someone tell me please....how the hell someone justify's $4299 for what essentially is cutting off a section and welding on cats? You have to give them your cores....so they are charging $4299 for cats? Am I wrong?

The primary cats are part of the headers. To remove them you
need to cut them off. If you want to go this route I would suggest
going with RPi. The also use the OEM headers and cut off the cats
however they provide a means to put the cats back on in case of
emissions.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116747

They are also a hell of a lot cheaper

 

[Rambino]

I don't think they are much cheaper.....They are $4299. And still require 15-20 hours of labor to install.....the only savings is not ever having to re-install stock headers down the road...and can someone tell me please....how the hell someone justify's $4299 for what essentially is cutting off a section and welding on cats? You have to give them your cores....so they are charging $4299 for cats? Am I wrong?

I second that, my solution would be my post above yours.. hacking and welding a straight section should work just as well.. ill go that route as long as i do it with an exhaust shop that knows what there doing.. any forseeable downsides?

 

[///Marshall]

I don't think they are much cheaper.....They are $4299. And still require 15-20 hours of labor to install.....the only savings is not ever having to re-install stock headers down the road...and can someone tell me please....how the hell someone justify's $4299 for what essentially is cutting off a section and welding on cats? You have to give them your cores....so they are charging $4299 for cats? Am I wrong?

Turner quotes 6500. Yes, this includes software but I don't think it
includes installation. If they are charging over 2k for software that's
insane.

I agree, the pricing on headers for our car is outrageous. I'm not sure
we'll see a 1k alternative anytime soon. That's not to say you
couldn't find a shop to do the same job. I wouldn't know how much
they would charge you in this case. Either way you still are effectively
modifying your own headers. You wouldn't have a untouched
replacement without ordering them from somewhere. Maybe
you could buy someone's headers?

I personally recommend buying aftermarket headers and keeping
your stock headers. If you have to swap out you'll need to pay for
the 10-15hr (or 15-20 for SS headers) install again. With the
RPi solution the idea is to reduce the install costs by just
"re-inserting" your cats without having to pull out the headers.

 

[///Marshall]

so they are charging $4299 for cats? Am I wrong?

Actually you're paying for your own cats. They modify them so
that they can clamp/unclamp from your headers. I'm not saying
that's worth 4299...don't shoot the messenger.

 

[CBarton]

Hahaha......no, I didn't realize THAT....so, RPI can you please comment with price justification before I REALLY start to say what I am thinking?

 

[kaninja99]

primary cat delete

guys,

you are assuming that the power gain from aftermarket headers comes from the primary cat delete

check this thread out

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=93293&highlight=headers+install

 

[JohnAnthony]

...

...I never understood why anyone would do JUST a certain section of the exhaust...I mean OK the mufflers are one thing{you like a different style tip or you just want your car to sound like you just bought a DINAN stage 3 kit meanwhile you didn't even get enough points for just the "D" let alone the other 4 letters}

...what gustav did is pretty much the only thing that makes sense to me...especially since i like the stock tips[BEST STYLE EVER...straight pipe look, none of that BS folded/curved walls with the chrome finish]...bigger to about 80-90mm would be like the cherry on my pina coolada...obviously i don't mean take a trip to the factory in italy, but if you're gonna do exhaust wait until you have all the money for both the exhaust and the ECU re-map...

some people have a frankestein exhaust system that makes me laugh...SS-headers, Eisenman X-pipe, Dinan Muffler, Hartge cat-deletion, & random pieces from their kitchen sinks to fill in the gaps

do it right:
1-full exhaust
2-ecu
3-open up that front end...why the hell are there all those pieces blocking airflow into the engine[also changing the intake again is like the cherry on the sunday...]

NO:

YES:

NOTE:i actually like supersprint just not the tips in the picture, and i don't like dinan at all...the irony, but they were the best pics i could find

 

[CBarton]

No, I am assuming that the primary cat delete is where the power gain from the RPI $4300 header mod is coming from....

guys,

you are assuming that the power gain from aftermarket headers comes from the primary cat delete

check this thread out

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=93293&highlight=headers+install

 

[TimK]

Turner quotes 6500. Yes, this includes software but I don't think it
includes installation. If they are charging over 2k for software that's
insane.

I agree, the pricing on headers for our car is outrageous. I'm not sure
we'll see a 1k alternative anytime soon. That's not to say you
couldn't find a shop to do the same job. I wouldn't know how much
they would charge you in this case. Either way you still are effectively
modifying your own headers. You wouldn't have a untouched
replacement without ordering them from somewhere. Maybe
you could buy someone's headers?

I personally recommend buying aftermarket headers and keeping
your stock headers. If you have to swap out you'll need to pay for
the 10-15hr (or 15-20 for SS headers) install again. With the
RPi solution the idea is to reduce the install costs by just
"re-inserting" your cats without having to pull out the headers.

This price from Turner also includes race cats that replace the secondaries IIRC. If one didn't get the race cats or SW (and just relocated O2 sensors behind secondaries) the Turner price would drop by several thousand.

 

[///Marshall]

This price from Turner also includes race cats that replace the secondaries IIRC. If one didn't get the race cats or SW (and just relocated O2 sensors behind secondaries) the Turner price would drop by several thousand.

I missed that. Yeah, seems like their prices could be lower.

 

[Rambino]

Actually John, The full exhaust system is good for a Turbo or supercharged car. For an NA motor, it needs restrictions and backpressu9e in order to produce low end torque, also a reason why the factory headers are pinched..

I for one, will do a frankenstein header cat removal and leave the rest of the system alone.. this should yield excellent results and save a lot on costs..

 

[CBarton]

I am reasonably sure that once the headers are off the car...I could have the finest fabricator around cut off the cats and create a delete pipe/flange system for WAY under $1000......so.....done AND installed for under $3000? Am I reaching here?

 

[deknight]

Actually John, The full exhaust system is good for a Turbo or supercharged car. For an NA motor, it needs restrictions and backpressu9e in order to produce low end torque, also a reason why the factory headers are pinched..

I for one, will do a frankenstein header cat removal and leave the rest of the system alone.. this should yield excellent results and save a lot on costs..

Not only that but the stock headers are equal length. Typically equal length headers make more power then unequal length headers (Evosport and Supersprint). However because of the flow restrictions they may balance out and the net gain maybe from the cat removal. It is hard to tell.

Also, it is my limited understanding that equal lenght headers should match flow from each manifold port to the collection tube and maybe BMW pinched the tubes to equalize the flow? (someone who actually understands these things can chime in.)

I have Evosport headers and they do make more power for sure. Why the make more power I cannot say for certain if from cat removal, better flow or both.

 

[JohnAnthony]

...

you shell out $6K for a Super Sprint system, WITCH-CRAFT happens and you make more power...:biggrinbounce:

LOL, i'm not saying to put on a straight pipe from the headers back...the TIPS on the muffler I want to be STRAIGHT PIPE...I can't stand those curved edges or the funky metal work...i'm not saying to remove the cats etc, i'm saying why do a bunch off different pieces rather than put on a one time item...FRANKENSTEIN {<<<-that's now TRADEMARKED} systems are like a BUBBLE GUM collection...i find them funny[because when someone asks what exhaust you have on, the person goes down a whole list]...also not every single piece makes power...especially mufflers

i was thinking what'd it be like to have a single HEADER/PIPE, one from a different manufacturer for each cylinder

cylinder 1-Kelleners
cylinder 2-Hartge
cylinder 3-Dinan
cylinder 4-Supersprint
cylinder 5-Magnaflow
cylinder 6-Eisenman
cylinder 7-Nowack
cylinder 8-Evosport

{thats the E39 System}

...THE ABOVE SYSTEM IS ALSO TRADEMARKED...all combos too so don't get wise and switch them out in different orders...:1:

and while i'm on it, i'll do different brakes on all four corners:"

FL:Movit
FR:Brembo
RL:AP Racing
RR:Stop Tech

...K i'm getting carried away, but my though on different parts used to make one system is that they're different WIDTH's and each is manufactured to work with that manufacturers setup, if i am wrong i'd appreciate being proven wrong before i go out and buy a full Supersprint system...

 

[CBarton]

Ahhhhhhh, but your theory is flawed. The whole basis of American Hot Rodding is to CUSTOMIZE your ride....I don't care if its a 69 Camaro or a 2009 Civic....if you modify it with parts of your choice....it's hot rodding...now if you ONLY buy Hamman mods.....you haven't really customized it....you Hamman-ized it....know what I mean? Kinda like buying a Camaro and installing all the SS parts....it's not really a hot rod....it's like a factory built SS.....You can buy a full tilt Hamman from Hamman....but you haven't hot rodded it....Hamman did.
So it goes back to my days as a kid...I stuffed a Chevy V8 in to a toyota mini, truck....it had a HOLLEY Carb, EDELBROCK Mani, Chrysler rear end, Ford Radiator, Weiand Valve covers and on and on......

So I find nothing wrong with someone who says........the SS headers are the best so I bought those...but I like the Evo HPipe best cause it's cheap and I prefer the sound of the Dinan muffler....or any combination of the above....

 

[m5baller]

I just got off the phone with Eloy at RPI to give him a heads up on this thread and a related thread regarding their header concept and pricing. He is in the middle of a project and indicated he would review this and the other thread at the end of the day and hope to posts replies!:applause:

I believe the questions are legitimate and I, too, am curious as to the bigger picture and associate up front and long term costs. :dunno:

Most of you know, I am not affiliated with RPI, just like their ethics and products.:M5thumbs:
:cheers:

 

[RPIpower]

One thing that people forget when pricing things are the cost of materials, fabrication, labor and most of all R&D. Do you want to go have a muffler shop hack off your cat, put whatever flange on and call it a day? We actually test the race pipe designs (different cone shapes), etc. on the road and on the dyno. The cost of a product always reflects the r&d behind it. Those who know us, know that our prices are always well thought out and fair. Do we charge $1000 for a pulley and 2 belts? No. Have we? No. Do we charge $500 for an intake system that doesnt work? No. Have we? No. The $4299 is not set in stone as we are trying to find a more cost effective supplier for the flange we use on the header. The difficult part about sourcing a flange that works is finding something that will fit and be durable, meeting our quality standards. The flanges we use are machined T-304 flanges at about $400 a set. Each header kit will utilize 8 flanges. Two of the flanges will be welded onto your stock header, two to your stock cat (for future swap), and four on your new race pipe. That, coupled with labor would show a significant increase of cost as compared to a mild steel ceramic coated unequal length header. Also, remember that the prices are NOT set in stone as we continue to look for a more cost effective solution for our flanges.