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Discussion Starter #1
Am i correct in saying that the new m5 engine will have very little gain in terms of torque over the e-39 M5 ?
Also from reviews of the only other v10 car out there..the Gallardo there is an inherent weakness in the v10...a lack of torque low down,to make the cars fly you have to rev them to hell,and basically work them very hard.
A few tests (tt vs Gallardo) have shown the TT faster over tight roads despite their straight line performances being very similar..is this due to the lack of torque ?
Also I read one review of the M6 stating that it will be offered with auto gearbox similar to the Audi DSG system as well as the 7 speed sequential we know about.
Thoughts ?
 

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Well, keep in mind there is another V10 car out there.. and it can never be accused of having a lack of low end torque. Of course, it is a much larger engine.

But I think it makes the point that V10 does not equal low torque. And highlights the largest contributing factor to torque... displacement. I for one am not shocked at all that the quoted torque is "so low". It has almost the exact same displacement as the E39.

As for the comparison between the Gallardo and TT.... I suspect there are also other factors to consider in the race.
 

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Mark,
I have similar concerns. Thats why I am speculating that the 1st gear in that 7 speed SMG setup will be really low, so you will get a sense of massive torque- remember the red line is somewhere in the 8300 range. What will top speed be in 1st though?

I wont judge until I try it, but I am expecting a driving experience more akin to driving the M3. Its not that there wont be solid low end torque when compared to other cars, but when compared to other cars in its class of peak power, I think it might not have all that low end torque and therefore, yes, youll have to really work it. Some will love this, some wont. I kind of fall in the middle. I dont mind it, but most of my driving is in environments where revving the hell out of the engine doesnt make much sense.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
exactly Menthusiast,I read the LAmbo does 70-80 in 1st gear,my concern though is at what insane speeds you'll be doing having to rev so high to get the benefits of the engine.
(great for racing off the lights but for general driving ?)
 

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Concern about torque is fine, but you'll likely see similar max speeds in each gear, just be turning more revs to reach that speed. Shouldn't be an issue once you stop staring at the Tach and start enjoying the sounds emanating from the quad pipes. If you haven't driven a motorcycle in a while and get on a 12,000 rpm bike you hesitate to run to redline at first. Once you learn that it's designed to go like that, then it's more natural and you're not concerned that you're "working the engine hard". It's designed for the stress.

The real proof will be in the driving. Let's hope it's not a "driving simulator" as Car & Driver said of the 645 recently.
 

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Thats what they said of the 645?! uh oh :eek:

What I mean is, I find I am fighting myself to keep the M3 slow because it needs to be driven hard to get at the magic in the engine and therefore to be any fun. The Z8 or M5 is fun at much lower speeds- although those engines are even more fun as rpms rise too. Im not too worried about the engine though, as BMW usually comes out with a good one.
 

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C & D have a comparo of the MB AMG coupe, the Maserati and the 645. All similarly priced cars.

The AMG just beat out the 645 by 1 point, and the 645 just beat out the Maserati.

C & D gave it poor marks for handling like a simulator(good numbers but not involving), poor back seat room etc. What they didn't say was whether they turned off the driving aids(DSC etc) to bring the car back to being involving. Maybe you can't run DSC off in the 645????
 

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You can run with DSC off, but you cant turn off active steering and active suspension.

many have commented that active steering is a little too numb feeling. I would agree with that criticism of my test drive of a 545 sport.

I suspect its the active steering system + run flat tires = unhappy reviewers. The run flats are really not good performance tires.
 

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Do not believe all these reports about supposed hp and torque #s.
Wait for the real car and for the OFFICIAL #s from Bmw before you worry too much.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The 645 has had good reviews here (UK) and the main criticism has been levelled atthe dull interior and the ride on those run flat tyres.
I would take the UK auto press as being better judges of handling than Car and Driver but I am concerned that the m6 and m5 will have run flat tyres as is the policy of BMW on the 5s and 6s.
 

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MEnthusiast said:
What I mean is, I find I am fighting myself to keep the M3 slow because it needs to be driven hard to get at the magic in the engine and therefore to be any fun.
BMW wouldn't set the redline at 8K if you were not free to use it all :M5rev:
Heck, they even have shift lights to help make sure you don't shift early.

Don't be afraid of hurting the car. Its an M for crying out loud, let the engine rev. These engines are designed to run harded than you could ever drive them on the street as long as you let them warm up and give them the proper maintance.

Too bad you are not out here on the west coast because it sounds like you need to go for a 10/10th ride :wroom:
 

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Im sure roadside assistance would still come help you if you replaced the run flats with regular tires- but it would be interesting to find out for 100%- maybe thats a question we should ask at the CCA meeting in June- or maybe we shouldnt?!

As to maxing out the engine. I know it can take it, thats not what Im talking about. Im sorry if Im not doing a good job of explaining. What I mean is, by the time Im in the fun zone, Im going too fast.
 

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You don't really have to go any faster to have fun in a car with a high strung engine. You just have to go faster to have fun in a fast car. For a really fast car normal speeds are just too easy. I don't think the E60 is going to be and "more fun" by this description :hihi:
 

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The engines from the M lineup are made to run hard, but there is still the S54 to remember... :crying:
I think the Gallardo has a first gear that is way too tall. I dont think BMW will make that mistake, as the fact that there are 7 gears means it must be a fairly tight group, but time will tell.
I'm not too worried about the V10 too much. If it has the power profile of the S2000 then I would be upset, but I agree with Jerry on the gearing issue. I think with the same amount of torque as the S62 and a shorter 1st gear (but with more revs so it isnt a VW style 10mph upshift), it will pull like the S62 till higher revs, and then be afterburner time. Once again though, time will tell if all of our speculations are fears are founded.
:cheers:
 

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While getting off the line I often struggle to effectively put down the E39's 369ft/lb's of torque. With a front engine, rear wheel drive platform we already face traction difficulties. Sure we want it, but we really need more torque?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'll forgive a lot for 500hp.

Derek
 

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MEnthusiast said:
Thats why I am speculating that the 1st gear in that 7 speed SMG setup will be really low, so you will get a sense of massive torque- remember the red line is somewhere in the 8300 range. What will top speed be in 1st though?
First gear ratio is normally a compromise for an easy-start gear and thus is normally lower than it otherwise would be. I suspect that the E60 first will run up till about the same speed as the E39. However, because the E60 M5 has an extra gear and the SMG will provide fast shifting, I bet BMW will make second closer to first to reduce the RPM drop, enabling the shift to be faster, and keep it in its power peak.

Tom
 

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BmwNut said:
The engines from the M lineup are made to run hard, but there is still the S54 to remember... :crying:
These were traced back to a bad bearing design and bad install procedure. Once corrected the S54 has no problems at all with running hard.
 
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