Ceramic brakes for M cars?

6318 Views 22 Replies 17 Participants Last post by Ashok Arora, Apr 24, 2005

Autobahnraser

Discussion Starter · Apr 21, 2005

BMW M GmbH still closes its eyes to ceramic brakes. I think the compound brakes of the M5/M6 are good enough for daily use and some laps on the track in leisure time.

Nevertheless, I'd like to know if BMW M customers would be willing to spend a sum of, say, 7.800,-- € (that's what Porsche charges) for ceramic brakes.

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

Gustav

· #2 · Apr 21, 2005

Ceramic brakes are not totally relaible as of now. Head it from many and now lately from Koenigsegg. The had an interesting experience with a Ferrari Enzo on their airfield...

The 388 km/h fast Koenigsegg CC-R uses seel brakes.

Kalbas

· #3 · Apr 21, 2005

I agree w/ Gustav, most GT2 owners are switching back to steel discs !!

AMG doesn't have any model (they stopped after the cl 55 F1)

My friend's Enzo blew the left front disc at 330 kph just before entering a slight curve on the freeway !! There wasn't anything left from the disc !!
No even a penny size part !!

The front fender looked as it had been shot from the ground up w/ a shotgun.

It happened at night, the pieces cut let left light, decapited the air valve !

Quite a scare, he had. I wasn't onboard. The next day the guys from Brembo showed to see what had happened !!

MRichmond

· #4 · Apr 21, 2005

I would not pay anything extra for different brakes, let alone upwards of US $10,000. The brakes that BMW M uses are plenty good enough for me.

bm5kw

· #5 · Apr 21, 2005 (Edited)

MRichmond said:
I would not pay anything extra for different brakes, let alone upwards of US $10,000. The brakes that BMW M uses are plenty good enough for me.

The E60 compound rotors have the abilty to expand RADIALLY to enhance braking when hot - anyone know if any other rotor ( OEM/aftermarket )on the market has this feature ?

Wolverine

· #6 · Apr 21, 2005

No way would I opt for ceramic brakes at this point. First of all, there is no data to show that ceramic brakes are superior to conventional steel in any kind of driving that you or I are likely to do. I would question whether anyone who purchases these brakes is capable of utilizing their capabilities. I'll venture to say the only people that pay for them don't really understand the technology.

ILC32

· #7 · Apr 21, 2005

I would not be willing to pay $10,000 US for ceramic brakes. A standard Stoptech or Brembo BBK is approximately $4,000 if you feel the stock brakes are not adequate for track work. The extra $6,000 is not worth it to me just to save weight.

Cheers.

deedee545i

· #8 · Apr 21, 2005

I have a question..... Is it true that M5 uses compound break disc??

Zapper

· #9 · Apr 21, 2005

deedee545i said:
I have a question..... Is it true that M5 uses compound break disc??

I think the M5 used floating rotors. This means that the rotors are not snug with the hub, but rather have the ability to expand (when hot) without transmitting as much heat to the hub (which extends the life of the hub) and without damaging the rotor or putting pressure on the hub.

The rotors are also cross drilled and internally vented to aid cooling.

AJ

· #10 · Apr 21, 2005

i dont think that the nature and philosophy of the m5 and m6 cars warrant ceramic brakes- yes, they resist fading better, but in the real world offer no other advantage that would make up for the higher price.

now, the m3 - i can see ceramic brakes as an option if the owner will intend to race...

i think that for the time being shift lights/ buzzers, ceramic brakes, rollcage, lexan windows and onboard fire-extinguishing system are better left for hard core racing...

alex
few cars

Autobahnraser

Discussion Starter · #11 · Apr 21, 2005 (Edited)

Wolverine said:
I'll venture to say the only people that pay for them don't really understand the technology.

You are right, I don't know much about the technology of ceramic brakes, but I have read that they have got several advantages compared to steel breaks:

- shorter breaking distance
- more sensitive response
- high resistance to heat and continuous stresses
- less weight

Wolverine

· #12 · Apr 21, 2005

Autobahnraser said:
You are right, I don't know much about the technology of ceramic brakes, but I have read that they have got several advantages compared to steel breaks:

- shorter breaking distance
- more sensitive response
- high resistance to heat and continuous stresses
- less weight

There is nothing inherent in ceramic brakes that would give them shorter stopping distances. The main thing that determines stopping distance is your tires, then brake swept area. They are in fact, more difficult to modulate in some cases than steel brakes, so sensitivity depends on your setup. They do have much higher resistance to heat, but this doesn't matter unless you are tracking the car.

They do have less weight, and this is probably the only advantage they have in a street application. Do you really want to pay $10,000 for a few lbs saved on each wheel? You could probably do better by just switching to some lightweight forged wheels.

M6 Forever

· #13 · Apr 21, 2005 (Edited)

I admit I do not fully understand the benefits and disadvantages of the ceramics. But I do know it appears they can be over the top on price and are perhaps designed for serious track use (although the results are debatable).

More importantly, is BMW giving us, who are buying their flagship product(s), the best brakes for the purposes of the car? Most of us would use it for routine daily driving and perhaps occassional tracking at most. We seem to get continuous mixed reviews and thoughts on this matter of brake utilisation and strength.

Therefore, I don't see why the option to upgrade should not be available. I believe in choice. If you are willing to pay for it and believe it is best for your driving purpose, then why not?

Wolverine

· #14 · Apr 21, 2005

M6 Forever said:
I admit I do not fully understand the benefits and disadvantages of the ceramics. But I do know it appears they can be over the top on price and are perhaps designed for serious track use (although the results are debatable).

More importantly, is BMW giving us, who are buying their flagship product(s), the best brakes for the purposes of the car? Most of us would use it for routine daily driving and perhaps occassional tracking at most. We seem to get continuous mixed reviews and thoughts on this matter of brake utilisation and strength.

Therefore, I don't see why the option to upgrade should not be available. I believe in choice. If you are willing to pay for it and believe it is best for your driving purpose, then why not?

I absolutely agree with you that better (e.g. track quality brakes, Brembo etc.) should be offered as an option. I did not mean to imply that I felt better brakes should not be offered. I just think ceramic brakes have a ways to go.

M6 Forever

· #15 · Apr 21, 2005

Wolverine said:
I absolutely agree with you that better (e.g. track quality brakes, Brembo etc.) should be offered as an option. I did not mean to imply that I felt better brakes should not be offered. I just think ceramic brakes have a ways to go.

Agree. Pro-Choice to upgrade if necessary.

bm5kw

· #16 · Apr 21, 2005

E60 M5 "compound " rotors , technology first introduced on the M3CSL :

paraphrasing BMW press releases on them :

Rotor/hub assembly is multipiece with a 15 % weight saving. The rotor disc - here's the " compound " part : " is separate from the hub and "floats" on a RADIAL anti-friction bearing, dissipating heat without thermodynamic linking to the inner parts "

vndkshn

· #17 · Apr 21, 2005

I'll vote with the "No"s on the ceramic brakes. The car just doesn't justify them. Even the M6 is suspect in this area. I think that the vast majority of those that order them think that they MUST be better because they are SO much more expensive, and so high tech.

Now, would I like to see a beefy brake option? Sure would. Would I get it? That would depend on cost more than anything else. If it was a reasonable price, then it would be a no brainer for me. But if it was fairly expensive (say 3k plus) then I would have to do some serious thinking about my intended use of the car to justify it to myself. But, being honest, I would probably take it unless it was stupidly expensive. But ceramics? Nope.

MEnthusiast

· #18 · Apr 22, 2005

Im with Dan and the others echoing those sentiments.

thebishman

· #19 · Apr 22, 2005

It appears that Ceramic brakes for street cars that occasionally venture on the track are overkill. Many Porsche owners have been left holding a very large bill when their ceramic brakes, that they paid highly for, have cracked at the track, and Porsche refused to replace the rotors under warranty; (disgusting imho). This problem is apparently caused by improper cooling, which is Porsche's fault in the first place, but of course they, (Porsche), now fall back on the 'we don't cover track useage under warranty', which is stupid given that it is the GT3, GT2 type Porsches that primarily have the Ceramic brakes on them.

Hence I would not at this time pay extra for ceramic brakes on the M5/6 especially since BMW could never get adequate cooling to the normal OEM brakes; hence my thought that the ceramics on the M5/6 should they be offered would be doomed to failure, UNLESS there is a substantial change to the front end of the car to direct lots of air to the front brakes.

I would however spend a good $500-$1000 for Brembo type 4-6 pot front brakes with fixed caliper, floating hub rotors as an upgrade.

My main gripe with the M division recently has been that everything about the new M5/6 is 'bleeding edge' EXCEPT for the brakes which are archaic in nature.
Bish

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Enigma

· #20 · Apr 23, 2005

thebishman said:
I would however spend a good $500-$1000 for Brembo type 4-6 pot front brakes with fixed caliper, floating hub rotors as an upgrade.

My main gripe with the M division recently has been that everything about the new M5/6 is 'bleeding edge' EXCEPT for the brakes which are archaic in nature.
Bish

I would pay $1-2k extra for a good Brembo type upgrade. I would NOT pay for ceramic at this point. They are lighter but the durability isn't there and I don't want to be left holding a bill for replacement rotors.

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