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Discussion Starter #1
upcoming amgs

Just how often do you use your computers full 100% of its processing power? Yet we all look for the best price/ghz ratio. Many car shoppers do the same thing. Those that can afford a F360 or 911 turbo might not be an expert driver, yet want something sporty that moves fast and is safe and easy to drive. Enter the AMG cars. Theres something for everyone. This is far superior to the bad old days of the 80s... Enjoy the final golden age of the internal combustion engine- because they are not here forever.
 
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Re: upcoming amgs

MEnthusiast said:
Just how often do you use your computers full 100% of its processing power? Yet we all look for the best price/ghz ratio. Many car shoppers do the same thing. Those that can afford a F360 or 911 turbo might not be an expert driver, yet want something sporty that moves fast and is safe and easy to drive. Enter the AMG cars. Theres something for everyone. This is far superior to the bad old days of the 80s... Enjoy the final golden age of the internal combustion engine- because they are not here forever.
Well said!

Cheers, Daniel.
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

MEnthusiast said:
Just how often do you use your computers full 100% of its processing power? Yet we all look for the best price/ghz ratio. Many car shoppers do the same thing. Those that can afford a F360 or 911 turbo might not be an expert driver, yet want something sporty that moves fast and is safe and easy to drive. Enter the AMG cars. Theres something for everyone. This is far superior to the bad old days of the 80s... Enjoy the final golden age of the internal combustion engine- because they are not here forever.
Well, somebody has been working on it for 30 years now so, the ICE will be with us for a long time... it might not run on petrol derived fuels... but the ICE will stay with us for a long time. No other type of engine can respond to the demands of a car like the ICE. If you think about it, a car engine has a lot of peculiarities that make it hard to substitute it... (it has been arround for over 100 years for some reason...):
it has to be light, it has to respond well to temperature variations, both running or stoped, it has to start easily, it must respond well and fast to a contantly changing load, etc...

The only thing which can compete is an electric engine. Because batteries have average eficiency over short term and APPALING eficiency over long term (especially with varying ambient conditions) using "only" the electric engine is doubtfull in the future. Fuel cells can somewhat help to overcome these dificulties. This is because they have an eficciency over 60% (almost twice as much as the MAXIMUM you can get on a car engine, be it petrol or fuel - heavy truck and boat engines go higher than 40% but i doubt we want 1TON 2000rpm engines on our cars, and that's the best case scenario...). This >60% on fuel cells is a constant efficiency but it's because you can't control the "load" on a fuel cell. So it runs always on maximum power and with maximum eficiency (like if you ran a petrol engine on it's power peak and ~90% throttle), which means you have to make the fuel cell power some battery and the battery power the engine... and I'm sure by now you start to see where the problems are coming from...
AND they still are REALLY expensive.
But in the future they won't be, but thanks to BMW (at least... dunno about other mfrs) we will still have ICEs beside fuel cells. Maybe in the future you can choose you engines... Or maybe only M cars will have ICEs and the others get the electrics. BMW is very, very good with ICE and they don't want to loose that. I'll take delivery of my hidrogen ICE M5 in 2020, right after my 40th birthday. :M5thumbs:

And now, back to the present... :byebye: 2005
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

MEnthusiast said:
Just how often do you use your computers full 100% of its processing power?....
i see what you mean, but the computer processing power is a very poor analogy / comparison to cars.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Re: upcoming amgs

The comparison to computers is perfectly valid. Both are consumer goods where the manufacturers realize that sales are based largely on specs. It is the explanation for AMGs insane power numbers. When their customers look at a SL65 vs something else, nothing else has anything near that power to price ratio - not even their own SLR can compete! (frankly, I dont understand the SLR one bit- Id take the SL65 over it in a pinch).

The problem for the internal combustion engine is the fuel we need for it is running out and either peaked in 2000 or will do so in 2035. No matter what you believe on that, there are new users (China) that will require an ever increasing share of the oil output- at a time when the leading suppliers are sliding into political instability (middle east, Russia). The days of the ICE are not over today, but the point is, they will be over sooner than many think. I would love for it to continue for ever, but thats not realistic. Do not worry- BMW has some cool hybrid stuff coming down the pike.
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

MEnthusiast said:
The comparison to computers is perfectly valid. Both are consumer goods where the manufacturers realize that sales are based largely on specs. ....
perfectly invalid.

many buy a dual 2.5Ghz power mac G5 because they need the power to do the job, not because it is the biggest bragging rights. many users are pushing the limits on a daily basis.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Re: upcoming amgs

Forget comparing on the mac because the mac platform is something people are willing to pay a premium for.

Most people look at cars as commodities as they do with PCs. Its price to performance. Its a valid comparison- of course no comparison is perfect so nit pick if you must.
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

MEnthusiast said:
Forget comparing on the mac because the mac platform is something people are willing to pay a premium for.

Most people look at cars as commodities as they do with PCs. Its price to performance. Its a valid comparison- of course no comparison is perfect so nit pick if you must.
duh, even though you are the admin i have to say this.

forget about the AMG, M, RS, etc etc because they are something people are willing to pay a premium for.

btw, if you can find me any computer (mac or pc) that is a COMMODITY and retains oh, 50% of its value in 4 years please let me know.

as an admin i think you should go back talking about cars. zzzz
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

Whether it's GHz/$ or hp/$ or sq.ft./$, it's all about Mktg. and the market each product serves, I think. MAC users will mostly stay with the MAC camp and MB fans would most likely stay with MB. Obviously MB sees that there are markets for even more exclusive vehicles such as the SL65, CL65, etc. etc. just another step up from the a-dim-a-dozen(relatively speaking) SLK55, E55, and CL55. If BMW comes out with a M5 CSL or M6 CSL, whether it's to "answer" competitions or for whatever reason, I'd welcome it. Afterall, competition makes better products! We, as consumers, should just sit back and reap the benefits. :cheers:
 

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Brand loyalty

amfung said:
MAC users will mostly stay with the MAC camp and MB fans would most likely stay with MB.
The likelihood of me staying with a computer running the Mac OS is much higher than my chance of buying one AMG after another.

I own a 2004 E55 and have been on the waiting list for the new M5 for 2 years. While I can think of half a dozen reasons why I would enjoy an M5 over the E55, I see absolutely no reason why I would go back to Windows.
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

I know we should get back into cars, but just one bit (a few bits actually) regarding PCs/cars. It is not comparable because PC require very small capital to make and cars require a huge amount of capital. The marginal values (be it in profits, investments, etc ARE very diferent) and anything but a basic course in economics should explain that well (or a nice book, if you're not in school).
Back to :wroom:
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Re: upcoming amgs

I think you've skewed this too far a field. We are all enthusiasts here.

Now, to square the analogy here: if you are a graphics pro and you max out your computers power, you are not unlike a race driver, maxing out the capabilities of his or her race car.

But for a street car driver is not unlike the average computer user. Their driving demands are not unlike your use of the internet or email or word processing- hardly daunting tasks for even entry level computers of today. Yet, who doesn't like speed? So people shop for a computer based upon bang for the buck. They do so with cars too.

That's why the HP rating gets prime billing in advertisements. Example: "the XXX horsepower Nissan Exterra"... In many ads the HP number goes before even the name of the vehicle!

You cannot max out a 330's handling on a public road, never mind a M5- but HP sells baby- it sells. Just like processor speed sells- even though people don't see the bottle necks- with cars its public road limits, tire grip; with computers its various bus speeds, perhaps hard drive speed.

The analogy, while not perfect (none is), is applicable. Duh indeed.
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

MEnthusiast said:
I think you've skewed this too far a field. We are all enthusiasts here.

Now, to square the analogy here: if you are a graphics pro and you max out your computers power, you are not unlike a race driver, maxing out the capabilities of his or her race car.

But for a street car driver is not unlike the average computer user. Their driving demands are not unlike your use of the internet or email or word processing- hardly daunting tasks for even entry level computers of today. Yet, who doesn't like speed? So people shop for a computer based upon bang for the buck. They do so with cars too.

That's why the HP rating gets prime billing in advertisements. Example: "the XXX horsepower Nissan Exterra"... In many ads the HP number goes before even the name of the vehicle!

You cannot max out a 330's handling on a public road, never mind a M5- but HP sells baby- it sells. Just like processor speed sells- even though people don't see the bottle necks- with cars its public road limits, tire grip; with computers its various bus speeds, perhaps hard drive speed.

The analogy, while not perfect (none is), is applicable. Duh indeed.
i m just going to talk about cars here, because some people (look above) have no clue about computers.

how many SL65 / CL65 buyers are race drivers and maxing out the capabilities of his or her race car on a daily basis?

the Mac analogy was telling you, MEnthusiast, that many people use their computers as a tool to accomplish a task at their job. AMG / M / RS / etc are more for FUN and not really for work. The owners dont have to work it at 10/10 on a daily basis, where most people who uses their computer at work uses it 100% a lot of times.

you are grabbing your own tail with the 330 analogy too. I can guarantee you some poor kid with his celeron processor is maxing out his processor capability with the video games he is playing.

This will be my last post on this thread on the computer analogy you put up, which is invalid; you either dont like people correcting you as you are the moderator, or you dont know when to shut up. Just simply ridiculous that you have to bring up computers when you dont know much about the topic. duuuh.
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

M! said:
This will be my last post on this thread on the computer analogy you put up, which is invalid; you either dont like people correcting you as you are the moderator, or you dont know when to shut up. Just simply ridiculous that you have to bring up computers when you dont know much about the topic. duuuh.
There is no need to have this kind of attitude if you don't agree with a fellow boardmember.

Please continue this discussion without computer references because it seems to bring the worst in people.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Re: upcoming amgs

This is indeed an interesting thread.

The one thing you are missing though is that both cars and computers are tools that can be used for either work or fun or both. One of the things that brings people to BMW is that they are actually useful at transporting people and items and yet are fun to drive.

I find criticism often brings out someone's true personality and to that end I would highlight the point that you could not stomach someone making an analogy that you thought was wrong. Rather than to just end your point, which is valid if you think you cannot make the comparison, as I disagree and think you can, you resort to such unpersuasive, and low-brow arguments as "duh". I find that most insightful. Cheers cherrsagai
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

i agree 100% that the amg cars sell on hp numbers and clientelle mentality. i will try to explain:

they are already at the point where those horses dont make much sense and cannot be put to the ground in any other fashion but with the steering straight and traction on. no car enthusiast would appreciate that. which brings me to the mentality issue.

i've lurked for a while on few merc boards, and what i found there was a few knowledgable folks (which also owned other auto weaponary) and the rest were largely car-ignorant owners/dreamers forged with the "mine is best" mentality. nothing wrong with that- but to those people you can appeal only in one way- "i have the most hp" statement. as far as they are concerned- they would rather drive a 1000hp car that is unsteerable vs. a well-sorted out 500hp scalpel.

and regarding the mac vs. pc analogy- not a bad one- but i would make it slightly different in light of what i wrote above- in the hands of the uninitiated, the mac provides excellent computing experience, safe, fast, etc. however, hackers never use macs. you want total control ? - you get a pc :)

so there :)

alex
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Re: upcoming amgs

be careful- the new mac os is freebsd (i think) with mac-like frontend ;) ... at least mac os is moving in the right direction, but so is amg by ditching the blowers :1:

alex
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Re: upcoming amgs

AJ said:
they are already at the point where those horses dont make much sense and cannot be put to the ground in any other fashion but with the steering straight and traction on. no car enthusiast would appreciate that. which brings me to the mentality issue.

i've lurked for a while on few merc boards, and what i found there was a few knowledgable folks (which also owned other auto weaponary) and the rest were largely car-ignorant owners/dreamers forged with the "mine is best" mentality. nothing wrong with that- but to those people you can appeal only in one way- "i have the most hp" statement. as far as they are concerned- they would rather drive a 1000hp car that is unsteerable vs. a well-sorted out 500hp scalpel.


so there :)

alex
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The majority of high performance AMG owners are not track drivers, in the same way that I think the majority of M5/M6 owners will not track the cars. (I for one, am buying the M6 as a daily driver). Knowing this, AMG continues to put extremely high kW/bhp into their cars, purely for sales reasons, as it fits the psychology of my "p---s is bigger than yours".

We would probably like to see a 550bhp M5/M6. But I would not like to see a 600bhp+ M6 that with all the computer turned on, it runs much the same as a 500bhp car.
 

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Re: upcoming amgs

M6 Forever said:
The majority of high performance AMG owners are not track drivers, in the same way that I think the majority of M5/M6 owners will not track the cars. (I for one, am buying the M6 as a daily driver). Knowing this, AMG continues to put extremely high kW/bhp into their cars, purely for sales reasons, as it fits the psychology of my "p---s is bigger than yours".

We would probably like to see a 550bhp M5/M6. But I would not like to see a 600bhp+ M6 that with all the computer turned on, it runs much the same as a 500bhp car.
in so many words...

alex
few cars
 
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