Camshaft Timing: Correcting one camshaft (SOLVED)

2056 Views 69 Replies 5 Participants Last post by Dances with v8, 4 d ago

Dances with v8

Discussion Starter · 1 mo ago (Edited)

Hello,

during assembly i made a mistake and one camshaft is not correct aligned. Lucky not far enough aligned to damage any internals as i still have the same compression over all 8 cylinders.

When i look at the BMW documents the aligning is done with all 4 camshafts. My question is now, if i know which camshaft it is, can i align only one of them and leave the other three untouched? Its bank 2 intake camshaft. Does it work when i only bring this one camsahft in its initial position and align them? I hope that the ECU will then realise that only one is in the initial position and correct only this one and the other stay in the same position as i dont loose any screws on them.

Does this work? Or will i unintentionally change the alignment of the other 3 when i change one? Or will it work if i only align the intake and exhaust camshaft of the same bank and leave the other 2 untouched?

The reason for this question is that the engine is in a car with a smaller engine bay and the less i have to change, i higher the likelyhood that i can do it inside the car and not have to remove the engine.

Thank you in advance!

edit: Solution: The culprit for my problems was a defective ECU. For further information see the following posts until the solution at post 68.

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herrubermensch

· #2 · 1 mo ago

Yes. In fact, that is precisely how you are supposed to adjust cam timing, viz., by locking the cams you do not need to adjust in place with pins and locking the crank at TDC firing for cylinder 1, then loosening the hub bolts for the cam you DO want to change and moving it into place with a wrench on the flat, then re-tightening the hub bolts. Make sure to spin the crank around a few times to ensure that all four cams' timing marks appear in the center of the slots in the cam caps.

--Peter

Dances with v8

Discussion Starter · #3 · 1 mo ago

Thank you. Do i understand that correctly that i still have to put every camshaft in its initial position? Otherwise i wont be able to lock them, right?

herrubermensch

· #4 · 1 mo ago

Dances with v8 said:
Thank you. Do i understand that correctly that i still have to put every camshaft in its initial position? Otherwise i wont be able to lock them, right?

When you have cylinder 1 at TDC firing, cams that are properly timed should have their timing slots appear in the center of the cam cap openings, and cam locks should drop right in. If that is not the case, then the timing of those cams needs to be adjusted as well.

--Peter

Dances with v8

Discussion Starter · #5 · 1 mo ago

Are you sure? Given what i read from the other posts and the bmw documents, the camshafts need to be brought to its initial position (e.g. here the second post from vantaam: Cam timing the S62 from scratch ), otherwise one cant read the alignment of the camshafts? At least thats how i understood it. Or is that only the case when you completly disassemble the vanos parts?
edit: The bmw documents in the TIS say that one cant read the timings when the engine put the camshafts into "start up" position and need to be brought into initial position.

I just want to make sure before i can take a look at it myself tonight. Not requiring to wiggle on the camshafts and bring them to the initial position would obviously make things quite a bit easier, because space is limited.

herrubermensch

· #6 · 1 mo ago

Do as you please. I'm telling you what I do. You are free to discard my advice and proceed as you want!

If your vanos was correctly installed, they will be in the correct position when the cams are correctly timed. If your vanos were NOT correctly installed, or if they somehow slipped or changed their orientation during operation, then you will need to remove and reinstall them as part of this process. "Initial position" just means "with the splined gears pushed as far into the vanos as the piston caps allow." Vanos is supposed to be installed in "initial position". If it was not or if its position changed during operation, then you should R&R your vanos on the side where the cam timing is off.

In all fairness, the only time I adjust camshaft timing is when I have just installed vanos and for whatever reason after I spin the motor over, the timing is off a little, so I proceed to adjust it as I describe. In that circumstance, I know the vanos is in the correct position when the cams are timed correctly because I just installed it. If your cam timing is way off, the better procedure is to remove and reinstall your vanos the correct way. Then you know that your cams are correctly timed and that your vanos was in the correct position.

Good luck.

--Peter

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Dances with v8

Discussion Starter · #7 · 1 mo ago

Maybe i need to clarify or give some additional information. The engine did already start and i did drive the car down the street for a couple of hundred meters. Because of that i think they wont be in the initial position. I think you are talking about an engine which hasnt started yet? Just want to avoid any confusion.

I do not discard your advise. It is very helpful. It is just conflicting information which i am trying to resolve.

herrubermensch

· #8 · 1 mo ago

Dances with v8 said:
Maybe i need to clarify or give some additional information. The engine did already start and i did drive the car down the street for a couple of hundred meters. Because of that i think they wont be in the initial position. I think you are talking about an engine which hasnt started yet? Just want to avoid any confusion.

I do not discard your advise. It is very helpful. It is just conflicting information which i am trying to resolve.

I typically am dealing with an engine on a stand. When I redo cam timing in situ, I usually R&R the vanos because I'm concerned they were not installed correctly either. But it's easy to tell whether your vanos are in the correct position because the helical gear will poke out from the hubs enough to see. Or you can pull the end caps off the vanos to confirm that the pistons are up against the caps.

A different way to put this that may make sense to you is that vanos has to be installed, and cams timed, with the camshafts in the "fully retarded" position--that is, with the vanos hubs turned clockwise as far as they will go. When that is the case, the helical gears should be visible in the vanos hubs, and the vanos pistons should be flat up against the caps. If by running your motor, rotating the crank to TDC firing for cylinder 1 does not put everything in the foregoing position, then my advice would be to remove and reinstall vanos on the offending side.

--Peter

Dances with v8

Discussion Starter · #9 · 1 mo ago

Yes, i will see how the helical gears are when i remove the valve cover tonight or tomorrow. I am fairly sure i did install the vanos correctly, i just have a small mistiming on one camshaft. I do know now what to do if that is the culprit (after all, it could be also that one of my camshaft sensors, although new and from BMW, is defective or one of the solenoids dont work).

If i am not sure about the position of the camshafts and their timing, i will have to remove the vanos and to it again from scratch. I just hope i can avoid that in favor of less work to do

.

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AHDP3Y

· #10 · 1 mo ago

Dances with v8 said:
Are you sure? Given what i read from the other posts and the bmw documents, the camshafts need to be brought to its initial position (e.g. here the second post from vantaam: Cam timing the S62 from scratch ), otherwise one cant read the alignment of the camshafts? At least thats how i understood it. Or is that only the case when you completly disassemble the vanos parts?
edit: The bmw documents in the TIS say that one cant read the timings when the engine put the camshafts into "start up" position and need to be brought into initial position.

I just want to make sure before i can take a look at it myself tonight. Not requiring to wiggle on the camshafts and bring them to the initial position would obviously make things quite a bit easier, because space is limited.

I would recommend doing this process by the book (TIS)

herrubermensch

· #11 · 1 mo ago

AHDP3Y said:
I would recommend doing this process by the book (TIS)

While I understand the impulse for this recommendation, the "book" isn't always the best way to do it. For example, noone uses compressed air and the 1-2-3-4 tool to put vanos in one position or another. Everyone simply removes the solenoid board, which removes all pressure from the system.

The best way to adjust cam timing IMHO is to R&R the vanos, making sure the cams are locked in position and the crank is locked at TDC firing for cylinder one, that the vanos gears are inserted all the way into the vanos units, and that the pencil tensioner is installed and any residual chain slack is taken up before tightening the vanos hub bolts. But for minor adjustments when it is clear that vanos is in the correct position (i.e., was installed correctly and hasn't changed through operation), it is fine to loosen the hub bolts and move the cam into the correctly position using a wrench on the flats of the cam, then re-tighten the hub bolts.

All I can say in defense of this is that I've done this quite a few times.

--Peter

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AHDP3Y

· #12 · 1 mo ago

AHDP3Y said:
I would recommend doing this process by the book (TIS)

herrubermensch said:
While I understand the impulse for this recommendation, the "book" isn't always the best way to do it. For example, noone uses compressed air and the 1-2-3-4 tool to put vanos in one position or another. Everyone simply removes the solenoid board, which removes all pressure from the system.

The best way to adjust cam timing IMHO is to R&R the vanos, making sure the cams are locked in position and the crank is locked at TDC firing for cylinder one, that the vanos gears are inserted all the way into the vanos units, and that the pencil tensioner is installed and any residual chain slack is taken up before tightening the vanos hub bolts. But for minor adjustments when it is clear that vanos is in the correct position (i.e., was installed correctly and hasn't changed through operation), it is fine to loosen the hub bolts and move the cam into the correctly position using a wrench on the flats of the cam, then re-tighten the hub bolts.

All I can say in defense of this is that I've done this quite a few times.

--Peter

Pete, what I meant is step by step process, yes we are to poor to buy special BMW tools....

Reactions: 1

AHDP3Y

· #13 · 1 mo ago

herrubermensch said:
While I understand the impulse for this recommendation, the "book" isn't always the best way to do it. For example, noone uses compressed air and the 1-2-3-4 tool to put vanos in one position or another. Everyone simply removes the solenoid board, which removes all pressure from the system.

The best way to adjust cam timing IMHO is to R&R the vanos, making sure the cams are locked in position and the crank is locked at TDC firing for cylinder one, that the vanos gears are inserted all the way into the vanos units, and that the pencil tensioner is installed and any residual chain slack is taken up before tightening the vanos hub bolts. But for minor adjustments when it is clear that vanos is in the correct position (i.e., was installed correctly and hasn't changed through operation), it is fine to loosen the hub bolts and move the cam into the correctly position using a wrench on the flats of the cam, then re-tighten the hub bolts.

All I can say in defense of this is that I've done this quite a few times.

--Peter

Also, it's understandable for you to do it however you do it because you've done it a few times. But for someone who is unfamiliar with this the " color by numbers" method is the key

herrubermensch

· #14 · 1 mo ago

AHDP3Y said:
Pete, what I meant is step by step process, yes we are to poor to buy special BMW tools....

Understood! Some people just take things literally, then start asking questions about using the BMW special tools they have purchased and I have to wrench them back into the best way of doing things!

--Peter

herrubermensch

· #15 · 1 mo ago

AHDP3Y said:
Also, it's understandable for you to do it however you do it because you've done it a few times. But for someone who is unfamiliar with this the " color by numbers" method is the key

I understand that as well!

--Peter

Dances with v8

Discussion Starter · #16 · 1 mo ago

herrubermensch said:
Everyone simply removes the solenoid board, which removes all pressure from the system.

Speaking of, theoretically, can one move the camshafts without removing the solenoid board when it already was under pressure? Like, would it be possible to overcome the resistance by force or is that impossible?

Sailor24

· #17 · 1 mo ago

Dances with v8 said:
Like, would it be possible to overcome the resistance by force or is that impossible?

Only if your solenoids are leaking. The solenoids hold oil pressure against the vanos piston and that oil would prevent it from moving that direction. Going the other way and drawing a vacuum might be possible, but likely very hard, so the real answer is no but the reality is they could move but likely only do to some fault.

AHDP3Y

· #18 · 1 mo ago

Dances with v8 said:
Speaking of, theoretically, can one move the camshafts without removing the solenoid board when it already was under pressure? Like, would it be possible to overcome the resistance by force or is that impossible?

Also, running in to possibility of slipped wrench and damaged heads. Just take the solenoids out.

Dances with v8

Discussion Starter · #19 · 1 mo ago (Edited)

Ah, ok thanks. Given from what i read/how i understood it i thought that there is some "overpressure" valve which then just lets the oil pressure out when i turn the camshaft. Looks like i understood it wrong.

I also installed new O-Rings on the Solenoids, so they shouldnt leak. But thats ok, i just buy engine coolant today and remove the cooler. I wanted to avoid that, but it is what it is. I also had to remove my brake booster and the linkage to be able to remove the valve cover yesterday. At least now i am fairly sure i can do everything with the engine still installed and wont have to remove the engine.

AHDP3Y said:
Also, running in to possibility of slipped wrench and damaged heads. Just take the solenoids out.

Yes, thats a good point. Thats also what lead me to removing the brake booster yesterday. Maybe i could have wiggled it somehow out there by force, but then i wasnt sure if i got it back in. And more important i was afraid i might break the cover and have to buy a new one. And i dont want to spend over 400 € on a new one or buy some used one which look like **** (mine luckily do look still rather good, still completly black and not silver like other used ones).

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AHDP3Y

· #20 · 1 mo ago

Dances with v8 said:
Ah, ok thanks. Given from what i read/how i understood it i thought that there is some "overpressure" valve which then just lets the oil pressure out when i turn the camshaft. Looks like i understood it wrong.

I also installed new O-Rings on the Solenoids, so they shouldnt leak. But thats ok, i just buy engine coolant today and remove the cooler. I wanted to avoid that, but it is what it is. I also had to remove my brake booster and the linkage to be able to remove the valve cover yesterday. At least now i am fairly sure i can do everything with the engine still installed and wont have to remove the engine.

Yes, thats a good point. Thats also what lead me to removing the brake booster yesterday. Maybe i could have wiggled it somehow out there by force, but then i wasnt sure if i got it back in. And more important i was afraid i might break the cover and have to buy a new one. And i dont want to spend over 400 € on a new one or buy some used one which look like **** (mine luckily do look still rather good, still completly black and not silver like other used ones).

You can disconnect your Vanos pressure lines as well as removing your solenoids. You didn't really have to remove anything else except plenum, spark plugs, coils, valve covers, pressure accumulator SAI tube that runs along the front of your engine as well as fan clutch and coolant lines. If you have any questions ask away I just did this on my beast with the help of Master Magician Matt.

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