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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
is anyone running standalone ECU for their engine controls? this DME is a blackbox to me and honestly, i hate it. I wanted more standalone option.

and hypothetically, if I swapped in another engine with separate ECU for engine control with manual gear box, will all interior electronics stop working? I don't mind dash not working but I'm talking about the abs, a/c compressor controls, even window/seat switches. not sure whether everything is being done on CANbus or whether it's the normal voltage switch style.
 

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Sorry to say if your asking these questions i dont know how a standalone ecu is going to help you out in what you want to do.

Separate ECU's for most parts of the car. Can all still work with a different ECU though. There is a 2JZ e60 in the uk with oem systems in car but aftermarket ecu running engine, still a few faults that show up though
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
i wanted to turbocharge the engine and can't really work with the DME for the tune. and if i were to supercharge it due to space contraints, i wanted ability to fine tune the maps and try different things with the tune down the line. just typical stuff.
 

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So the turbocharged S85 is a path down a long road. You would need to build the engine for low(er) compression, might as well put rods in while you’re at it, stud the heads too. Then you have to fab the exhaust headers for the turbos and wastegates. If you want front mount turbos you have to cut the car up in front of the shock towers. The you need to fab a plentum and charge pipes that may or may not include a water to air ic and plumb all those hoses and tanks to the trunk. You need to figure out where to pull turbo feed oil and return it- keeping in mind the minimal loss of oil now feeding the turbos could affect the Vanos operation. You could avoid that by running a stand-alone oiling system for the turbochargers but that requires more pumps, heat exchangers and hoses. Then you have to feed the motor with a new fuel system, probably return style with a regulator and injectors to support the power and/or E85. Finally, you can get to the stand alone ECU. The M5 is has multiple CAN circuits that will require a M5 specific package in order to integrate with the car, engine and transmission (a 6 speed would be much easier). The only ones that are currently in development use the DCT transmission from the M3. So scrap the SMG. The DTC clutches are only good for ~750 whp (I forget the actual tq number) so you have upgrade that with Dodson clutches, add the custom driveshaft and add all the additional sensors you want to monitor for datalogging besides the 3 or 4 bar map sensor. You will also probably need to go to a twin throttle body setup as the ITBs are worthless at this point. Build the exhaust back from the turbos and then you can get to tuning. $45-50k would be a good budget if you’re a fabricator and have the shop to build it yourself. On parts alone I can add up $43k off the top of my head. While your tuning you can decide how much power you believe the S85 can take before you find the limits, because that’s not really known. The S85 forced induction “experts” blow up motors regularly with superchargers but instead of admitting their own mistakes they blame the motor, maybe you can do it right. If you make glory pulls on the dyno and push coolant or tear the motor up tuning it you get to rebuild it because hey- you’re the pioneer.

Jim Colley is working on the MoTec M1 platform and another Syvecs unit is in the works too. Good luck with your endeavor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
thanks for the reply. i dont think spacing is much of an issue looking at the engine bay. piping and plumbing don't worry me for a smaller twin turbo solution like gtx30. worst case, downpipe will dump straight down with cutoff valve with small caliber main downpipe rerouted to the stock exhaust system. sure, lower compression may allow higher boost levels, but with the knock sensor and tuning capability these newer ECU's offer, we are now able to FI higher compression engines safely. i probably won't be boosting beyond 1 bar on stock compression, but that should be more than plenty. all this ecu development is relatively new in the past 5 years or so. so it's an exciting time. furthermore, with e85 option, knock isn't much of a problem anymore. i have seen some crazy timing advance on e85 with no knock. it's incredible stuff.

having said all that, lack of ecu option is the main problem. and possibly the only problem. i'm partial to syvecs and haltech. fueltech is also an attractive option that's relatively new. i tend to think motec is overrated and overpriced. when i speak with haltech, they seem to think it's going to be easy as long as i give them crank position sensor diagram, engine control sensor information, and information on vanos system operation control. they already have capacity to control 4 camshafts on engines like coyote. i know it's apples and oranges, but erg, at the end of the day, it' still an engine with variable cam timing. we'll figure it out eventually and when we do, i hope we can have 3-4k option for complete standalone system just for the engine and leave the rest of the car to the stock dme.
 

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thanks for the reply. i dont think spacing is much of an issue looking at the engine bay. piping and plumbing don't worry me for a smaller twin turbo solution like gtx30. worst case, downpipe will dump straight down with cutoff valve with small caliber main downpipe rerouted to the stock exhaust system. sure, lower compression may allow higher boost levels, but with the knock sensor and tuning capability these newer ECU's offer, we are now able to FI higher compression engines safely. i probably won't be boosting beyond 1 bar on stock compression, but that should be more than plenty. all this ecu development is relatively new in the past 5 years or so. so it's an exciting time. furthermore, with e85 option, knock isn't much of a problem anymore. i have seen some crazy timing advance on e85 with no knock. it's incredible stuff.

having said all that, lack of ecu option is the main problem. and possibly the only problem. i'm partial to syvecs and haltech. fueltech is also an attractive option that's relatively new. i tend to think motec is overrated and overpriced. when i speak with haltech, they seem to think it's going to be easy as long as i give them crank position sensor diagram, engine control sensor information, and information on vanos system operation control. they already have capacity to control 4 camshafts on engines like coyote. i know it's apples and oranges, but erg, at the end of the day, it' still an engine with variable cam timing. we'll figure it out eventually and when we do, i hope we can have 3-4k option for complete standalone system just for the engine and leave the rest of the car to the stock dme.
I'm not sure how much you've used any Syvecs, Haltech, or Motec, but the minute you start talking about integration with the OEM can, Syvecs and Haltech go out the window with an extra paperweight. Motec may be expensive, but you will only find one other option in the standalone market that allows you to write, compile, and execute your own source code which is needed to a) write the CAN messaging structure b) write the torque manager model and c) offer enough CAN busses to run the E60 and that's the Bosch MS6 line. However, with Motec you can purchase a development license for the M150 (the minimum ECU that will run a V-10) for around $2800. Ask Bosch for their IDE and the ability to do the same and it's about $10k/year revolving.

So, with that in mind, there is absolutely no way you're getting any aftermarket standalone ECU to work with either DCT, SMG, or DSC/ABS with the same degree of refinement as OEM without the ability to write your own code and emulate the OEM torque management strategy.

I chose Motec because it was a steal in comparison to Bosch, Syvecs refused as they already "have" it done, and AEM won't give anyone access to the Infinity IDE.

The reason there's nothing in this market for a standalone....there *is* no market. No one is building E63 or E60 race cars, regardless of how cool the engine might be, so the customer base is mostly comprised of people who are still concerned about OBD compliance. That makes for a rather mutually exclusive customer base and the only person stupid enough to pursue it is someone who's unreasonably obsessed with the idea knowing full well it will never yield any ROI whatsoever.

It's easy to make the S85 run on a standalone, that's been done plenty of times. It's a lot harder to make a standalone fit nicely in the E6x platform and still work to any reasonable degree. Now, integrate the BSD bus so you can read oil level, control the alternator and AC compressor loading (all integrated into the torque model BTW as loads), as well as ionic knock/misfire sensing as there are no knock sensors on this motor. Add in message control for DK-CAN (throttle actuators), LLS-CAN for the Idle Actuators and SMG (yes, the SMG bypasses the DME for direct idle actuator control) and then throw in EKP (fuel pump control module) control and a non-return fuel system and it becomes a fairly formidable task.

On the other front, I'll address....I've had an E60 chassis sitting in the shop for 2 years mocking up a turbo manifold arrangement. With all the rod bearing jobs I've done, I probably have as much time as anyone staring at clearance between frame rails, cylinder heads, alternators, AC Compressors, secondary air valve mounting bosses, steering racks, lateral oil pumps, heat shields, etc. It's....challenging.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
thanks for the detailed reply! yes, making it work with the OBD and OEM can-bus is NOT what i'm looking for. I am guessing OEM dash is all CAN-bus controlled, so I will have to find standalone display for vital engine info.

you said making engine run on a standalone is easy. which ECU can do this? I already have haltech elite 2500 running on my engine swapped FI rx8 which I fabricated from ground up. i had a few other builds over the years which weren't as extensive as the rx8 i have currently. I don't mind OEM e60 dash not working. I just want the windows/seat/mirror controls, brake lights, turn signals, etc. working. I also would like to keep EDC and climate control system. I am worried about the extent to which the OEM DME controls all these ancillary stuff over CAN-bus. I'm worried that if I cut communication from the engine to the OEM DME, all these stuff will stop working or will become a nightmare to wire from scratch.

in short, I'm looking for a standalone to run the engine +/- transmission (SMG if possible but not necessary), and leave the rest to the stock DME. I can yank out OEM dash and replace it with some racepak dash if necessary. my concern is whether the rest of the car will work if i do this...? thanks in advance!

as for spacing concerns, let me just say... I will make it work! :grin
 
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