Anyone installed ESS tune on v24?
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What's going on?+1
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Based on what Tommy has been discussing with me privately, my understanding is that he is referring to a VANOS noise.
Bare with me, this will be a longer post.
Tommy has software revision 7839-211 from BMW, which is one of the newest versions. The fact that he has v24 software from BMW is not a relevant factor. I believe this refers primarially to the iDrive operating system.
Just for reference:
My car has 7837-113
kenny has 7838-711
Darrick has 7838-113
r tuned (Ali) - 7839-211 (Same ECU version as you, should be getting DME back momentarially. He will report if he has this noise)
Tommy had expressed to me that the car was driving much better with the software: Instant gains on the v-box, smoother, much more low end torque, cleaner shifts, etc... But he said that he is hearing a noise from his VANOS unit or pump.
The software itself can not cause a vanos rattle. The vanos unit has mechanical limits internally, and the software does not change the maximum advancement and retardation position of the vanos, because this is mechanically limited. It is not possible for software to cause this issue. You also mentioned that the car does not throw any fault codes, which is a sign that the software is working properly.
It is however, possible that a preexisting condition has been brought to light. This could be due to a few reasons.
1) Repeatedly redlining/beating the car. (Don't get me wrong here, I beat my car and it runs perfectly. See #2)
2) Driving the car hard before it is 100% fully warmed up. ALWAYS let the car warm up all the way before driving hard.
3) Your DME was damaged in shipping to us. (It was not packed properly and I have attached pictures of the DME as received - broken plastic and bent pins). We are currently sourcing another DME for your car for you to test out as a good will gesture to show that the software is not related.
4) Check your oil level, it may be low.
We have many cars (including mine - I have the exact same tune as you) running this software without any issues whatsoever. I myself have been running this software for about half a year (10000 miles with it so far), and have never had one glitch. You are the first problem I have ever heard in my career with ESS to have an issue.
On top of that, M engines are notorious for having loud valvetrains and vanos problems. The E39 M5, and the E46 M3 both had these issues, which were substantiated by driving the car very hard at higher RPM's for sustained periods.
Regardless, we would like you to send your DME back to our facility, and we will reflash it back to stock and send it back to you (unless were able to source this second DME) to verify this is in the vanos unit and not in the software. Then you can take it to the dealer and have them fix the issue under warranty, and we will flash it back for you if you want.
Were here to help and serve you, and I can assure you that our software has been track and street tested for thousands of miles before its release. Again, this is the first issue I have ever heard with regard to the software (and we've sold this to more than 100 people), and it is related to your vanos system and not to the software itself.
So as of now, you have a few options:
1) Reflash back to stock, see if the noise is there, and take it to the dealer to have them fix your tempermental vanos unit under warranty.
2) Reflash back to stock and we will refund you.
3) We can also reflash it with a less agressive tune that does not change any VANOS settings.
If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact me. We've been in business for over a decade, and are dedicated to high quality products and high quality service. Thanks for taking the time to read this everyone, and I'm sure once Tommy takes his car to the dealer they will fix his preexisting vanos issue.
Bare with me, this will be a longer post.
Tommy has software revision 7839-211 from BMW, which is one of the newest versions. The fact that he has v24 software from BMW is not a relevant factor. I believe this refers primarially to the iDrive operating system.
Just for reference:
My car has 7837-113
kenny has 7838-711
Darrick has 7838-113
r tuned (Ali) - 7839-211 (Same ECU version as you, should be getting DME back momentarially. He will report if he has this noise)
Tommy had expressed to me that the car was driving much better with the software: Instant gains on the v-box, smoother, much more low end torque, cleaner shifts, etc... But he said that he is hearing a noise from his VANOS unit or pump.
The software itself can not cause a vanos rattle. The vanos unit has mechanical limits internally, and the software does not change the maximum advancement and retardation position of the vanos, because this is mechanically limited. It is not possible for software to cause this issue. You also mentioned that the car does not throw any fault codes, which is a sign that the software is working properly.
It is however, possible that a preexisting condition has been brought to light. This could be due to a few reasons.
1) Repeatedly redlining/beating the car. (Don't get me wrong here, I beat my car and it runs perfectly. See #2)
2) Driving the car hard before it is 100% fully warmed up. ALWAYS let the car warm up all the way before driving hard.
3) Your DME was damaged in shipping to us. (It was not packed properly and I have attached pictures of the DME as received - broken plastic and bent pins). We are currently sourcing another DME for your car for you to test out as a good will gesture to show that the software is not related.
4) Check your oil level, it may be low.
We have many cars (including mine - I have the exact same tune as you) running this software without any issues whatsoever. I myself have been running this software for about half a year (10000 miles with it so far), and have never had one glitch. You are the first problem I have ever heard in my career with ESS to have an issue.
On top of that, M engines are notorious for having loud valvetrains and vanos problems. The E39 M5, and the E46 M3 both had these issues, which were substantiated by driving the car very hard at higher RPM's for sustained periods.
Regardless, we would like you to send your DME back to our facility, and we will reflash it back to stock and send it back to you (unless were able to source this second DME) to verify this is in the vanos unit and not in the software. Then you can take it to the dealer and have them fix the issue under warranty, and we will flash it back for you if you want.
Were here to help and serve you, and I can assure you that our software has been track and street tested for thousands of miles before its release. Again, this is the first issue I have ever heard with regard to the software (and we've sold this to more than 100 people), and it is related to your vanos system and not to the software itself.
So as of now, you have a few options:
1) Reflash back to stock, see if the noise is there, and take it to the dealer to have them fix your tempermental vanos unit under warranty.
2) Reflash back to stock and we will refund you.
3) We can also reflash it with a less agressive tune that does not change any VANOS settings.
If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact me. We've been in business for over a decade, and are dedicated to high quality products and high quality service. Thanks for taking the time to read this everyone, and I'm sure once Tommy takes his car to the dealer they will fix his preexisting vanos issue.
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Mike,
Very well put thats top notch customer service in my book and standing behind your product so proudly, I couldn't have put it better myself. Tommy your lucky your dealing with someone like Mike, but in all seriousness why didn't you put your ECU in a box, I mean thats the brain to your beast.ouich
Very well put thats top notch customer service in my book and standing behind your product so proudly, I couldn't have put it better myself. Tommy your lucky your dealing with someone like Mike, but in all seriousness why didn't you put your ECU in a box, I mean thats the brain to your beast.ouich
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Thank you, I really appreciate your words.
We were extremely surprised at the packing used for his ECU, and our tech spent a lot of extra time putting the pins back in their correct place, and running further diagnostics on the ECU to make sure it was nothing major.
I remember when I sent my ECU in: a box within a box, with bubble wrap everywhere, and the packing peanuts. I even put a bow on it!
Cheers! I am off to have my dinan springs installed :cheers:
Honestly, whoever packes the DME (brain of the car) in a envelope and ships it I dont know what you thinking!! Hope you learned a lesson..
99% there is a problem with the Vanos not the new software update!!
Mike props on your excellent customer service!!!
99% there is a problem with the Vanos not the new software update!!
Mike props on your excellent customer service!!!
Mike, it seems some people might benefit from ECU packing guidance.
Assumptions about sturdiness might be made since it simply looks like a piece of metal and stiff plastic.
The reality is that it is a sensitive electronic component.
I shipped mine in a anti-static bag that zips shut (to keep water out), packed it tight in a box lined with rigid foam padding, taped bubble wrap around that box, and put the whole works into a larger box packed tight with "peanut" packing material.
When I was done, I was ticked to find that I forgot to pack the desiccant pouches I had ready (as a precaution against condensation).
I couldn't bring myself to unpack the whole works and pack it up again.
If it's not obvious, it took me longer to pack the ECU than it took to get it out of the car.
Most folks won't be as paranoid as me, but a reminder of responsible packing technique will help protect the owner and you (as well as the ECU).
Speaking of paranoid, I also wore grounding cuffs on both wrists for the entire removal process and didn't take them off until the ECU was in the inner box.
BTW, thanks for the lengthy post about the situation. It's nice to know what the deal was.
Assumptions about sturdiness might be made since it simply looks like a piece of metal and stiff plastic.
The reality is that it is a sensitive electronic component.
I shipped mine in a anti-static bag that zips shut (to keep water out), packed it tight in a box lined with rigid foam padding, taped bubble wrap around that box, and put the whole works into a larger box packed tight with "peanut" packing material.
When I was done, I was ticked to find that I forgot to pack the desiccant pouches I had ready (as a precaution against condensation).
I couldn't bring myself to unpack the whole works and pack it up again.
If it's not obvious, it took me longer to pack the ECU than it took to get it out of the car.
Most folks won't be as paranoid as me, but a reminder of responsible packing technique will help protect the owner and you (as well as the ECU).
Speaking of paranoid, I also wore grounding cuffs on both wrists for the entire removal process and didn't take them off until the ECU was in the inner box.
BTW, thanks for the lengthy post about the situation. It's nice to know what the deal was.
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2,066 Posts
Regardless of who's at fault here and what is the true root
of the problem I'm hoping to see Tommy's car working in
correct order again. Remember there's a person on the
other end who's worried about their car.
It's good to see that ESS is working to figure out the real issue
rather than leaving their customer's out to dry. I'm hoping
this doesn't turn into a bunch of finger pointing and accusations
thread. It feels like there are enough level heads involved that
this will not happen.
of the problem I'm hoping to see Tommy's car working in
correct order again. Remember there's a person on the
other end who's worried about their car.
It's good to see that ESS is working to figure out the real issue
rather than leaving their customer's out to dry. I'm hoping
this doesn't turn into a bunch of finger pointing and accusations
thread. It feels like there are enough level heads involved that
this will not happen.
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1,394 Posts
Well said ///Marshall. I think there have been a few assumptions posted as to the problem being non-ecu related, when at this point there is no way anyone can say it is, or is not, the ecu.
Let's not jump to conclusions. Root cause analysis has not been performed and I don't think anyone is off the hook here yet. Mike is doing the right thing by staying involved and I believe he will do what's right in supporting his customer.
I have met Tommy personally and spent time with him. He's a great guy and no idiot. I'm sure there's more to all this than we know about so far.
Cheers,
Darren
Marshall & Darren, you both have echoed my sentiments in a very diplomatic manner. :applause: And I think Mike is showing some significant effort to rectify the situation.:M5thumbs:
However, And I don't know crap, and I mean I am as ignorant to this issue as they come. So I am completely qualified to do no more than state a stupid observation. It is too early to know what the source of the issues. An equally compelling arguement can be made to the rare occurance of Vanos issues on the '07 MY. And I would offer no opinion, except I read at the bottom of Mike's post, under we have a few options; "3) We can also reflash it with a less agressive tune that does not change any VANOS settings." This conflicts in my reading of the opening statement; "the software does not change the maximum advancement and retardation position of the vanos, because this is mechanically limited".
If I am Tommy reading this, I do not feel completely reassured. There may be a misunderstanding in the context of the statement. However, the door is open to read; the software does not affect the Vanos in any manner, to; we can change the agressiveness to not change the Vanos settings. Sounds to me like the software does incorporate the functionality of the Vanos, by that statement.:dunno:
Again, not trying to make trouble, but we all have had that feeling about our cars when things aren't right. Sometimes we freak out and don't use rational judgement.hmmm Mike, you are doing right by the offers on the table.:M5thumbs: Continue to make sure Tommy can eliminate the ESS as a contributor to his problems.:blink:
Good luck to all and :cheers:
However, And I don't know crap, and I mean I am as ignorant to this issue as they come. So I am completely qualified to do no more than state a stupid observation. It is too early to know what the source of the issues. An equally compelling arguement can be made to the rare occurance of Vanos issues on the '07 MY. And I would offer no opinion, except I read at the bottom of Mike's post, under we have a few options; "3) We can also reflash it with a less agressive tune that does not change any VANOS settings." This conflicts in my reading of the opening statement; "the software does not change the maximum advancement and retardation position of the vanos, because this is mechanically limited".
If I am Tommy reading this, I do not feel completely reassured. There may be a misunderstanding in the context of the statement. However, the door is open to read; the software does not affect the Vanos in any manner, to; we can change the agressiveness to not change the Vanos settings. Sounds to me like the software does incorporate the functionality of the Vanos, by that statement.:dunno:
Again, not trying to make trouble, but we all have had that feeling about our cars when things aren't right. Sometimes we freak out and don't use rational judgement.hmmm Mike, you are doing right by the offers on the table.:M5thumbs: Continue to make sure Tommy can eliminate the ESS as a contributor to his problems.:blink:
Good luck to all and :cheers:
Thanks for all the advise guys and Mike, thank you for going out of your way to work with me on this issue. I really hope it is a VANOS problem and the software might have just aggravated it. It was just very odd that I had no issues before the software and upon the first start up, the car made a gulping noise when blipping the throttle at idle to 1500rpm. Let me be clear though, all other functionality of the software seems to be ok.
From Mike's comments above:
1. Yes, I beat on the car pretty good. That is what M cars were made to do.
2. Never pull the car out of the garage until it has warmed up for 10 min and M button does not get pushed until 210.
3. As for shipping, I will definately take the hit for that. A hard lesson learned. Even though, for overnight shipping, they literaly had to be playing frisbee with the thing. Even so, you guys had no issues with the download.
4. Unless the oil gauge is wrong. No other way to check it.
I think ESS has a good software for this car and I plan on sticking it out with them. I am confident that R Tuned's car will run fine and I will be able to narrow it down to my own cars issues which was the purpose of this thread. I needed to see if someone had the same original software as mine. Who knows, it might be a quick fix with a VANOS line or pump. When all of the issues are fixed I will do a detailed write up on the software as well as V-box before and after multiple runs under the same conditions to show any real world improvement. I will be out of town for the next 2 weeks so there will be some dead time on this issue.
Again, thank you ESS and everyone for the help with this.
P.S. Mike, sorry to hear about your ride. You have had a rough week.
From Mike's comments above:
1. Yes, I beat on the car pretty good. That is what M cars were made to do.
2. Never pull the car out of the garage until it has warmed up for 10 min and M button does not get pushed until 210.
3. As for shipping, I will definately take the hit for that. A hard lesson learned. Even though, for overnight shipping, they literaly had to be playing frisbee with the thing. Even so, you guys had no issues with the download.
4. Unless the oil gauge is wrong. No other way to check it.
I think ESS has a good software for this car and I plan on sticking it out with them. I am confident that R Tuned's car will run fine and I will be able to narrow it down to my own cars issues which was the purpose of this thread. I needed to see if someone had the same original software as mine. Who knows, it might be a quick fix with a VANOS line or pump. When all of the issues are fixed I will do a detailed write up on the software as well as V-box before and after multiple runs under the same conditions to show any real world improvement. I will be out of town for the next 2 weeks so there will be some dead time on this issue.
Again, thank you ESS and everyone for the help with this.
P.S. Mike, sorry to hear about your ride. You have had a rough week.
I believe the manual specifically states that you SHOULD NOT warm the car at idle. Start it, and drive off normally. Keep the revs down until the engine warms and then--Kabamo!
Never read that or maybe it just didn't sink in. I don't understand the theory behind that unless the pump has trouble distributing cool engine oil at idle rpm. If it does cause a negative side effect wouldn't it be printed in large bold letters on one page as well as a cuastion from the dealer before he kicked you out the door?
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