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This thread contains some very useful info. That said, be advised it's a culmination of second, third & fourth hand data acquired by consumers diligent studying unconfirmed source info. This includes interpretations of Bob the oil guy combined with uncertified, often twisted spec data from oil mfrs like Redline and info spread by corrupt & aggressive Amsoil pyramidal resellers. Use this info with extreme caution because much of the data is unsubstantiated by independent testing sources. Independent testing/certification & frequent testing of competitor's products often shows data to be flawed or optimistic. Conclusions have been drawn after reviewing countless marketing brochures, mfr spec sheets (slanted/unconfirmed info) and other one-sided or uncertified sales info.

Cary has no experience in the oil development or testing field & his vision has been unavoidably skewed by Redline's effective smokescreen, hype & marketing. Any intelligent individual reading publicly-available lubricant info (on the internet and elsewhere) will be oblivious to Redline's history of pushing unapproved, uncertified and untested oils & resulting widespread consumer hardware failures. Ford, GM, Toyota, Getrag and countless consumers have all been bitten in the past by Redline uncertified product. Redline's method of using consumers as guinea pigs & their failure record has been effectively muted. Their street lube development process lacks independent testing/certification and the Chevron-sourced additive package is a joke. They virtually stand alone, defying good science, industry-recognized standards, development methods, certification and QA/QC. Real facts surrounding Redline products are deeply buried under marketing hype, sponsorship & fiction.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Lscman,

The only reference to Redline in the above article is "Redline is a Group V PolyEster based oil." Just curious, were you one of the many folks who got burned using Redline?

As always, I appreciate you sharing your significant professional and practical knowledge with the board.
 

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An interesting thread, after my conversation with Castrol (covered in the previous threads) I will stick with TWS 10/60. I have however changed oil between services for peace of mind.....

BMW did develop a specific oil grade for use with their Vanos system and particulant filters together with castrol. I have always been a mobil 1 fan, however I will still play safe and sticks with TWS 10/60 ....
 

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Carrera2RS said:
BMW did develop a specific oil grade for use with their Vanos system and particulant filters together with castrol. I have always been a mobil 1 fan, however I will still play safe and sticks with TWS 10/60 ....
Same here.

TexasM5
 

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ELEVENS said:
Lscman,

The only reference to Redline in the above article is "Redline is a Group V PolyEster based oil." Just curious, were you one of the many folks who got burned using Redline?

As always, I appreciate you sharing your significant professional and practical knowledge with the board.
As you say, Cary's initial posting does not mention much about Redline, but several followup posts by Cary and other's are recommending it as if it's top shelf "extended service interval". It is not.

Cary said:
Personally, I think that Redline is a great oil, and...
I personally like Redline Tranny Fluids for both manual and automatic transmissions.

These broad-brush recommendations are downright dangerous. Even ignoring the history of compatibility problems, the lifespan of Redline's line of "ShockProof" tranny lubes is literally measured in hours. They are for racers who want more rear wheel HP for a couple hour race with acceptable protection. Redline literature does not warn about it's short-lived stabilizer qualities. I've seen prominent SCCA racers recommend it's use for street and folks try it thinking it'll last 30K mi or more. More like 3K mi (lol).

My fundamental concern with Redline is somebody needs to develop, test & prove their product before the consumer uses it. This is not done. A couple shops have a great track record using it for particular applications. After this pioneering is done and it passes the test of time, it may sway me for use in a specific application and duty....but these occasions are rare. All Redline products are NOT bad though...many of their race lubes offer the necessary lifecycle and efficiency benefits the racer needs. That said, extended service interval street lubes are different. They are much more difficult to develop and confirm as suitable because the additive packages are much more complex & costly to develop/blend to augment each unique base product. Weaknesses are only identified after spending millions of lab dollars for testing...unless, of course, you give it to the consumer to "try out" first (lol). Additives are not an afterthought...they are key. Additives are what allow a synthetic to remain fairly stable for 75K all-season miles in a street car instead of 750 miles for a long weekend at the track (in a Chevy motor you get rebuilt yearly).

Hey, I was working closely with Ford's Special Vehicle Operations Group, Steve Saleen and Kaufmann Products in the mid '80's when Redline crap hit the fan. I was aware that Kris Kaufmann was rebottling this stuff for T-5 and he took heat for it. Ford wanted to clobber him when they heard he was selling non-certified elixors for use in Ford cars still under warranty. This is when Redline just began marketing streetable lubes. A close friend at Ford was drawn into the warranty issues where carbon blocker synchro rings in the Borg Warner T-5 Transmissions were peeling off like wet cardboard & Redline was denying compatibility issues. These same transmissions filled with API approved ATF (per Ford) are still shifting great today (without rebuild), 20 years later. The Redline attacked glue like friggin' fingernail polish remover. About 6 mo later viola, Redline changed the formula and color of MTL, while still denying blame. I still have an old bottle of that clear stuff downstairs & yes, I briefly using it in my 1986 track car. Luckily I drained it before the tranny died, so I was not stung. Failures caused by Redline's later formula (circa 1992+) also occurred with C4 Corvette ZF yellow metal synchros and I noticed the popular GM guru & SCCA racer John Heinricy was involved with a campaign for OEM GL3 fill thru 1998, for those multi-vis GL3 tranny lube cars. I followed John's lead. About 6 years later, I heard about the Toyota nightmare from a friend who was using it in his Supra track car 6spd Getrag. This really pissed me off, knowing Redline was repeatedly damaging consumer hardware. To this day, their advertizing and labeling say their product works in all applications. If you call them and reach the right person, they will verbally warn you against it's use in Supra. It is not in writing.

As you can see, this Redline issue hit close to home several times. In addition, I worked for Chevron/Gulf R&D and heard few former associates snickering about Redline's primitive street lube development methods. It was widely known that the Redline company was a good race product developed on a shoestring budget by a handful of competent engineers in a sort of "garage environment". They had remarked more than once that severe consumer pressure literally obligated them to quickly release largely untested & uncertified product for street use. The opportunity was simply too lucrative where consumers were clamoring to buy it at ANY price, with or without minumum certification. Their heroes were being sponsored and ran it. There was absolutely no incentive for Redline to properly research, develop, test & release fully-approved street lubes.

Every time somebody posts "some famous racer uses it in his really fast car, so it's gotta be good for street", I want to barf...knowing consumer's vehicles are at risk. The whole lack of certification, race hype and consumer gullability makes me sick because I can't warn everyone.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Lscman,

Wow - thanks for sharing that, I knew you had it in you. It's a most interesting story and you tell it well.
 

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I also talked to Cary b4 and I asked him specific info for the m5... he is great help... I have to look around for the info.... pretty much he told me to stick with 10-60, and then he gave me other options for cheaper oil, but same results....
 
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